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-   -   T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit (https://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=38880)

Jason Donaldson 11-08-2008 03:18 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Overall, not a bad article. Fairly well balanced and researched. But I was disappointed to see Cosgrove, Boyd and Poliquin quoted in there. There's three blokes who clearly don't get it.

Regarding Uncle Rhabdo. CrossFit has done more to raise awareness of Rhabdo than any other fitness organisation/movement etc bar none. Uncle Rhabdo is about raising awareness, not having a laugh. That's what Pukie is for, because, lets face it, it's fcking funny when someone has a technicolour yawn during or after a hard session! :D

Regarding Coach Glassman. From my contact with the bloke, I haven't got a bad word to say. I'll continue to take people as I find them and come to my own conclusions.

Finally, thanks Chris for at least taking the time to do a couple of sessions to see what its all about.

Coach 11-08-2008 04:00 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Nick Cummings,

“Research and thought”? You are exceedingly generous.

Our very public and constant claim is that fitness is best defined as work capacity across broad time and modal domains; that meaningful assertions about a program need to address safety, efficacy, and efficiency with measurable, observable, repeatable data; that constantly varied, high intensity, functional movement delivered in a competitive sporting environment has produced unprecedented work capacity across broad time and modal domains (fitness); that by incorporating a lifestyle, including diet, rest, and workout elements that cause common health and fitness metrics to move simultaneously from pathological, past “normal”, to “fit” values we introduce a third axis, age, that turns our two dimensional work capacity area under the curve to a three dimensional solid whose volume defines both health and fitness (making health a logical facet of fitness); that all of this needs to be delivered publicly where methods, results, and criticisms, are transparent and, finally, that iterations of this effort have fed an open source community where experimentation will demonstrate best practices and ultimately advance the art and science of human performance .

This is what a well thought out and researched article would have addressed. I would have loved to discuss or debate any or all of this. What I got from Chris Shugart instead was a handful of questions designed to fuel traffic-generating gossip and hatred. I declined and called instead to give him some source material for what was the journalistic thrust of his article: my personality.



Christoper Day, Phillip Garrsonq, Joe Cavazos,

CrossFit is the world leader in rhabdo prevention and awareness. It’s very likely that the overwhelming majority of people who know about rhabdo today were introduced to the subject by our committed efforts. That you’re embarrassed by Uncle Rhabdo while the community of nephrologists continues to buy T-shirts bearing his image says more about you than us.

I’m guessing that you think “Kami”, the HIV positive Sesame Street character, makes fun of AIDS and that Smokey the Bear is an inducement to torturing animals.

Admit it, gentlemen, without Uncle Rhabdo, you’d have never heard of Rhabdomyolysis.



Christopher Day,

My claims about hypertrophy are based on several decades of working in Gold’s Gyms throughout California, including the “Mecca of Bodybuilding" and comparing physiques of natural, “natural”, and steroidal bodybuilders to gymnasts and CrossFitters. That I’d have gotten spectacularly angry responses to what is quite simply my observation suggests to me that I’m correct.



Phillip Garrsonq,

Your claim that I’ve been venomous to people who object to my methods is entirely and perfectly untrue. I pay people to offer criticism and object to my methods. I’m venomous towards unethical behavior. Get the difference?

Your claim that outside of CF our cert doesn’t hold any creed flies in the face with the fact that our largest customer for cert’s is the US Military paying on public funds. We’ll do five more Mil/LEO certs before the year is out.

On the subject of CrossFit, Sir, you’re quite in the dark. Read more and post less, please.



Brandon Oto,

We’ve hired an actuarial firm with working access to insurance claim form data assessing the rhabdo risk. There’s enough written in peer reviewed literature, available on the Net, to make an irrefutable case for the claim that we don’t have but a small fraction of the rhabdo incidence rate of many popular sports and conventional mil/LEO PT. I take the subject quite seriously and we know quite a bit about the distribution of risk.



All,

Getting our competitors in the marketplace (Polliquin, Cosgrove, Boyle, Cook, …) to speak poorly of our efforts is like getting Montgomery Wards, Woolworths, and Mervyn's to speak poorly of WalMart – meaningless and obvious in motivation.

What about work capacity across broad time and modal domains? What do they have to say about that? Answwer: Nothing. What do they have to say about safety, efficacy, and efficiency buttressed by measurable, observable, repeatable data? Answer: Nothing. What is their response for our call to “evidence based fitness?” Answer: Nothing. What about our two and three-dimensional models of fitness and health? Answer: Nothing.

I know why.

Finally, I want to thank everyone here, moderators included, for your gracious support and contribution to what is the finest fitness community on earth.



Chris Shugart,

I want to repeat my offer for you to come to a seminar as my guest. Let me know when you’re coming and I’ll make sure I’m presenting. Afterward, we’ll go out and have some beers so you can get some more background for my biography. Your writing will really take-off with some research. You may even find that information changes your mind. It does mine. (Smile)



Chad Waterbury,

Welcome to CrossFit. Thank you for the kind words.



Tim Patterson (Owner of T-Nation),

You've inspired me to fund a scientific test of your supplements! Which one would you like us to check out first? This [I]could[/I] be big for you. Can you see it..."The Truth About T-Nation". (Really big smile)

Jason Lopez-Ota 11-08-2008 04:46 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
[QUOTE=Coach;441535]I’m guessing that you think “Kami”, the HIV positive Sesame Street character, makes fun of AIDS[/QUOTE]

Nice! You must have read my post.

Nick Cummings 11-08-2008 07:06 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
The line of work I am going into requires me to be exceedingly generous in my public statements. No insult was meant and I believe my thoughts can be discerned from my post.

Its good to read posts from you again, Coach.

Zach Mitchell 11-08-2008 02:15 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
I haven't been involved very much on the boards since I became a CrossFitter in January, but every once in a while I enjoy reading what is here and/or posting my own questions/comments.

Just when I was beginning to think that CrossFit was becomming a name brand and spread too thin to manage the quality of Affiliates and how they're interpreting CF instruction was leading to a breakdown of such a well-developed and tight-knit community, Coach comes in with one fell swoop and tightens the reigns, reminding the community as a whole, what CrossFit is about.

Don't ever stop posting Coach. No matter how well you have trained anyone after you they just won't be the same. As much as we want it to be the same as it was in the beginning it just won't be without your constant influence.

Steve Rakow 11-08-2008 02:37 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Who's Waterbury?

Jamie J. Skibicki 11-09-2008 10:51 AM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
Google is your friend, Steve.

Steve Rakow 11-09-2008 03:49 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
No s**t, Jamie. The question was written tongue-n-cheek. My point is that I haven't seen anything Waterbury has out there that comes close to what Coach has published - WODs included.

Matthew Stafford 11-09-2008 05:36 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
[QUOTE=Steve Rakow;442296]No s**t, Jamie. The question was written tongue-n-cheek. My point is that I haven't seen anything Waterbury has out there that comes close to what Coach has published - WODs included.[/QUOTE]

Waterbury comes here to say something great about the CrossFit community and you see fit to insult him? Classy.

Phillip Garrison 11-10-2008 02:51 PM

Re: T-Nation, Shugart and the Truth About CrossFit
 
[QUOTE=Coach;441535]Nick Cummings,

“Research and thought”? You are exceedingly generous.

Our very public and constant claim is that fitness is best defined as work capacity across broad time and modal domains; that meaningful assertions about a program need to address safety, efficacy, and efficiency with measurable, observable, repeatable data; that constantly varied, high intensity, functional movement delivered in a competitive sporting environment has produced unprecedented work capacity across broad time and modal domains (fitness); that by incorporating a lifestyle, including diet, rest, and workout elements that cause common health and fitness metrics to move simultaneously from pathological, past “normal”, to “fit” values we introduce a third axis, age, that turns our two dimensional work capacity area under the curve to a three dimensional solid whose volume defines both health and fitness (making health a logical facet of fitness); that all of this needs to be delivered publicly where methods, results, and criticisms, are transparent and, finally, that iterations of this effort have fed an open source community where experimentation will demonstrate best practices and ultimately advance the art and science of human performance .

This is what a well thought out and researched article would have addressed. I would have loved to discuss or debate any or all of this. What I got from Chris Shugart instead was a handful of questions designed to fuel traffic-generating gossip and hatred. I declined and called instead to give him some source material for what was the journalistic thrust of his article: my personality.



Christoper Day, Phillip Garrsonq, Joe Cavazos,

CrossFit is the world leader in rhabdo prevention and awareness. It’s very likely that the overwhelming majority of people who know about rhabdo today were introduced to the subject by our committed efforts. That you’re embarrassed by Uncle Rhabdo while the community of nephrologists continues to buy T-shirts bearing his image says more about you than us.

I’m guessing that you think “Kami”, the HIV positive Sesame Street character, makes fun of AIDS and that Smokey the Bear is an inducement to torturing animals.

Admit it, gentlemen, without Uncle Rhabdo, you’d have never heard of Rhabdomyolysis.



Christopher Day,

My claims about hypertrophy are based on several decades of working in Gold’s Gyms throughout California, including the “Mecca of Bodybuilding" and comparing physiques of natural, “natural”, and steroidal bodybuilders to gymnasts and CrossFitters. That I’d have gotten spectacularly angry responses to what is quite simply my observation suggests to me that I’m correct.



Phillip Garrsonq,

Your claim that I’ve been venomous to people who object to my methods is entirely and perfectly untrue. I pay people to offer criticism and object to my methods. I’m venomous towards unethical behavior. Get the difference?

Your claim that outside of CF our cert doesn’t hold any creed flies in the face with the fact that our largest customer for cert’s is the US Military paying on public funds. We’ll do five more Mil/LEO certs before the year is out.

On the subject of CrossFit, Sir, you’re quite in the dark. Read more and post less, please.



Brandon Oto,

We’ve hired an actuarial firm with working access to insurance claim form data assessing the rhabdo risk. There’s enough written in peer reviewed literature, available on the Net, to make an irrefutable case for the claim that we don’t have but a small fraction of the rhabdo incidence rate of many popular sports and conventional mil/LEO PT. I take the subject quite seriously and we know quite a bit about the distribution of risk.



All,

Getting our competitors in the marketplace (Polliquin, Cosgrove, Boyle, Cook, …) to speak poorly of our efforts is like getting Montgomery Wards, Woolworths, and Mervyn's to speak poorly of WalMart – meaningless and obvious in motivation.

What about work capacity across broad time and modal domains? What do they have to say about that? Answwer: Nothing. What do they have to say about safety, efficacy, and efficiency buttressed by measurable, observable, repeatable data? Answer: Nothing. What is their response for our call to “evidence based fitness?” Answer: Nothing. What about our two and three-dimensional models of fitness and health? Answer: Nothing.

I know why.

Finally, I want to thank everyone here, moderators included, for your gracious support and contribution to what is the finest fitness community on earth.



Chris Shugart,

I want to repeat my offer for you to come to a seminar as my guest. Let me know when you’re coming and I’ll make sure I’m presenting. Afterward, we’ll go out and have some beers so you can get some more background for my biography. Your writing will really take-off with some research. You may even find that information changes your mind. It does mine. (Smile)



Chad Waterbury,

Welcome to CrossFit. Thank you for the kind words.



Tim Patterson (Owner of T-Nation),

You've inspired me to fund a scientific test of your supplements! Which one would you like us to check out first? This [I]could[/I] be big for you. Can you see it..."The Truth About T-Nation". (Really big smile)[/QUOTE]

Coach, I never claimed CF wasn't doing anything to try and prevent Rhabdo, but it also is in poor taste to make fun of it also. If you want to distant yourself from the rhabdo stigma, don't make light of a rare, but serious condition. For the record i knew about rhabdomyolsis long before I learned of CF a training protocol I do espouse.

Using the Military as the "proof" that CF is now the premier cert within the sport exercise industry is a poor comparison, as the military is notoriously behind the curve in proper exercise science testing and instruction. Being a working S&C coach who is a member of both the NSCA, and ACSM I can tell you within the exercise science community CF is not looked down upon, but also as not seen as anything revolutionary since you/it espouses concepts and exercises that have been part of professional and academic S&C curriculum for nearly 50 years in the Soviet Union and nearly 30 years here in the US. While I applaud you for your efforts in bringing such solid techniques to the relatively uneducated masses, most within the community do not regard CF as anything revolutionary and nothing more than deliberatly unstructured GPP. This does not diminish from the efficacy of what CF can do however.

The criticisims that many have about CF are that they have not been subject to scientific scrutiny using the rigid standards to which many of the protocols espoused by Epley, Poliqiun, etc have had their training protocols held up to. While Epley and Poliquin certainly have had their detractors over the years, they also are willing to let the training programs they espouse be put up to scrutiny both in the labratory and on the field of athletic performance, which may be their particular problem with CF.


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