CrossFit Discussion Board

CrossFit Discussion Board (http://board.crossfit.com/index.php)
-   Fitness (http://board.crossfit.com/forumdisplay.php?f=4)
-   -   CFSB - Ask your questions here! (http://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=42787)

Chris Kemp 02-12-2009 08:23 AM

CFSB - Ask your questions here!
 
The publication of Bingo and Jeffís ďStrong MedicineĒ (WFS) article and Jeff Martinís Interview (WFS) on CrossFit Radio (WFS) started a load of interest.

There are a couple threads on this already but they got kinda convoluted with various distractions. Let's keep this one on point with discussion on implementation of the program. So please, ask any and all questions that you need to get started with the CFSB.

Note that the program in itís current form is targeted at Intermediate or Advanced CrossFitters and we may suggest that you are would be better served by following the CF.com WOD (including ME days) with appropriate intensity.

Lastly, for those that donít know me Iím kempie. I run CrossFit NorthEastEngland but have got to know the Martinís through links formed by the historic Painstorm workouts. Iíve hung out as a satellite BrandXer for years and was lucky enough to be invited to join the CFSB guinea pig program. Be happy to share my experiences with the program and how I implemented it.

Cheers, kempie

Chris Kemp 02-12-2009 08:24 AM

Re: CFSB - Ask your questions here!
 
One of the major questions seen so far is “What’s the deal with the high rep sets? You mean we do these as well as the ME? And the metcon?“

OK, that’s three questions but that seems to be the centre of folks difficulty with the program.

In practical terms the high rep sets seem to convert our limit strength increases to something usable in Crossfit workouts. It is a big contributor to the effectiveness of the program.

Once you have completed the ramp up cycle suggested in the Journal article then 3 days a week you will be doing some form of high rep work in addition to your ME sets.

Monday ME Back Squats + metcon
Tuesday ME Deadlifts + high rep deadlifts + metcon
Wednesday Rest
Thursday Metcon
Friday ME Front Squats + high rep back squats + metcon
Saturday ME Press + high rep press + metcon
Sunday Rest

For back squats only one high rep option is suggested (ie 15 - 20 reps). The multiple sets suggested for deadlifts and presses proved too much to recover from for pretty much every crash test dummy.

For deadlifts and presses two main options are given.

A single high rep set of somewhere between 12 and 21 reps. If you stick with the single set option (in general these are easier to recover from than the multi-set options) then once you hit the upper limit with a given load increase the weight next week and start working your way up again.

A multi set option (eg 15-12-9 or 10-7-4). For consistency a fixed rest of somewhere between 1 and 2 minutes between sets is recommended. If you successfully complete all 3 sets unbroken than move on to a greater volume option ie 15-12-9 => 21-15-9. If not then repeat next week.

Starting out on these high rep sets I would suggest starting with a single set of 12-15 and start with a load you know you could comfortably get 10 with. As long as you get 12 or so stick with that load and keep repeating that single set week on week until you manage 15 or more. Now is the time to try something like 12-9-6 (or even 10-7-4 for the press)

Joshua Murphy 02-12-2009 08:58 AM

Re: CFSB - Ask your questions here!
 
Kempie -

Thanks for doing this. I have a couple of questions that I think you partially answered, but I am still looking for more clarity. For the high rep sets, it seems as though the goal is to increase the overall volume for the day at moderately heavy weight. I say moderately, because you will obviously be fatigued from the ME portion of the day (or at least if you are doing it right you will be). So for the high rep sets, you will conceivably never be at your "max" for that set (because of preceding fatigue). Was any thought put into switching the order of the high rep and ME sets from time to time? Also should we be looking at the high rep sets as volume training at 80-90% (or less) of our true max for a high rep set?

For me, I just plan to hit the high rep sets as heavy as possible, with the understanding that gains will most likely come faster and easier with ME sets.

Or am I way off?

Thanks,

Josh

Jeff Power 02-12-2009 09:11 AM

Re: CFSB - Ask your questions here!
 
Thank you for your willingness to answer some of these questions.

My question is to the choice of exercises for the ME work why only one upper body lift during the week?

Did ya'll play around with different protocals---3 days on 1 off, 5 days on 2 off etc?

Thanks,
Jeff

Jeff Martin 02-12-2009 09:40 AM

Re: CFSB - Ask your questions here!
 
Jeff,
I'll answer that question. 2 on 1 off, 3 on 1 off is simply the schedule I keep and the athletes I train at Brand X keep. A brief history might keep things from getting overly complicated.

I am a CrossFit Trainer, I'm proud of that. As such I have been heavily influenced by Coach Glassman. In his article,
Fundamentals, Virtuosity, and Mastery
An Open Letter to CrossFit Trainers
CrossFit Journal August 2005

http://library.CrossFit.com/free/pdf/Virtuosity.pdf

Coach states the following:

There is plenty of time within an hour session to warm up, practice a basic movement or skill or pursue a new PR or max lift, discuss and critique the athletesí efforts, and then pound out a tight little couplet or triplet utilizing these skills or just play. Play is important. Tire flipping, basketball, relay races, tag, Hooverball, and the like are essential to good programming, but they are seasoningólike salt, pepper, and oregano. They are not main courses.

Look familiar?

Warm up
Lift
Short metcon
skill work and play

We follow Coaches lead in virtuosity in movement at BX. You will hardly ever hear a trainer telling someone to go faster. They almost always will be helping the clients/athletes to move better. In the same way we followed coaches template outlined above.

While visiting last summer three CrossFitter, Patrick Massey, Anita Tyler, and Patrick Hoffman noticed the way were training was a little different than some of the other affiliates they had visited and began hounding me to write down what we were doing and pass it on to them. Their incessant badgering eventually won out and CFSB is the product.

Why do we only press one day? Simple, most of us were "understrong" in the squat/deadlift department but already pressed at bodyweight.

Jamie J. Skibicki 02-12-2009 09:44 AM

Re: CFSB - Ask your questions here!
 
Jeff,

Would you think changing the metcon day on the fourth day to a bench press day in the style of the OH pressing day (day 6) be too much to recover from?

Chris Kemp 02-12-2009 09:53 AM

Re: CFSB - Ask your questions here!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshua Murphy (Post 516997)
Kempie -

Thanks for doing this. I have a couple of questions that I think you partially answered, but I am still looking for more clarity. For the high rep sets, it seems as though the goal is to increase the overall volume for the day at moderately heavy weight. I say moderately, because you will obviously be fatigued from the ME portion of the day (or at least if you are doing it right you will be). So for the high rep sets, you will conceivably never be at your "max" for that set (because of preceding fatigue). Was any thought put into switching the order of the high rep and ME sets from time to time? Also should we be looking at the high rep sets as volume training at 80-90% (or less) of our true max for a high rep set?

For me, I just plan to hit the high rep sets as heavy as possible, with the understanding that gains will most likely come faster and easier with ME sets.

Or am I way off?

Thanks,

Josh

Josh, it's a bit black box but just pick a load that will allow you to get into the specified rep range this week. Can just about guarantee you'll get an extra rep or two in next week. It's not so much about increasing volume for the sake of it. Rather, about developing a capacity that will be useful to us in our CrossFit workouts. Maybe you could get more reps with that load if you were fresh, but that's not really the aim. Rather, we want to develop the capacity to lift "heavy" things when tired.

When I started this I was managed to do 12-9-6 with 300lb deads. After 2 and a bit cycles I managed 17@330 and 11@360. I'm guessing that Linda at 300 is gonna be a bit easier next time round ...

Help any?

Cheers, kempie

Chris Kemp 02-12-2009 09:59 AM

Re: CFSB - Ask your questions here!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamie J. Skibicki (Post 517037)
Jeff,

Would you think changing the metcon day on the fourth day to a bench press day in the style of the OH pressing day (day 6) be too much to recover from?

Jamie, that could work. Depends on how much time you need to recover from benching before pressing. Could also consider adding your bench press day after deads and running a 3 on 1 off cycle or simply alternating bench and press every other week.

Just a case of making it fit with your capacities, goals and practical limitations.

Cheers, kempie

Shane Skowron 02-12-2009 10:05 AM

Re: CFSB - Ask your questions here!
 
How did a cycle of CFSB affect your monostructural performances? Positive, negative, or, neither? E.g. times at 5k run, 2k row, etc.

Jamie J. Skibicki 02-12-2009 10:16 AM

Re: CFSB - Ask your questions here!
 
I'll give it a shot and let you know how it goes

Chris Kemp 02-12-2009 10:19 AM

Re: CFSB - Ask your questions here!
 
Shane, I didn't do much of this throughout the programming. However I did a 1000m row after maybe 1.5 cycles and dropped a couple of seconds off my PB (down to about 3:10) having done very little rowing.

Wouldn't be surprised if my 5km run time has snuck up a bit but more through lack of practice than anything else.

Cheers, kempie

Jeff Belyeu 02-12-2009 11:21 AM

Re: CFSB - Ask your questions here!
 
Since you mentioned running.... I think the CFSB program sounds great and I started it Monday. I am trying to teach myself pose method running with vibram five fingers. I have started with a few short runs around my neighborhood, mixing in running at moderate pace and walking to either catch my breath or just keep fresh and maintain (hopefully) good form. I don't think it would be a big tax on the system, but since rest is stressed in this program, I am unsure on when/where to work on this. Would this be fine as active rest? Should I used this in place of one of the skill work times, or one of the metcons? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Jeff Power 02-12-2009 11:25 AM

Re: CFSB - Ask your questions here!
 
Jeff(Martin),
Thanks for that, any thoughts on 5 on 2 off schedule to correspond to a work week? And could I sub in a power clean/push press instead of front squats to get more upper body work?

My stats are 5'10" 220# 42yom Squats=385 Deadlift=385 Press=185 the last time I did CFT have been playing around with SS althought not strictly. It seems to focus on the squat mostly while my weekness is the deadlift and the press. As well as sucking wind anytime I do more that 5 reps of something.

I want to work on my weaknesses (ie. powerclean/push press) as well as bring up my met-con ability.

Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks forall that you're doing as well as kempie and bingo and the rest of ya'll that really help us globogym reformed home gymers.:thanx:

Jeff

David Schneider 02-12-2009 11:29 AM

Re: CFSB - Ask your questions here!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Belyeu (Post 517108)
Since you mentioned running.... I think the CFSB program sounds great and I started it Monday. I am trying to teach myself pose method running with vibram five fingers. I have started with a few short runs around my neighborhood, mixing in running at moderate pace and walking to either catch my breath or just keep fresh and maintain (hopefully) good form. I don't think it would be a big tax on the system, but since rest is stressed in this program, I am unsure on when/where to work on this. Would this be fine as active rest? Should I used this in place of one of the skill work times, or one of the metcons? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Short jogs/runs working on POSE should be alright, as long as you're not running MARATHONS on rest days...

You could always incorporate short sprints into your metcons, they go great with heavy lifting. You could have them as a part of a couplet or triplet (e.g. Heavy power cleans & sprints) something like that.

I'm sure Kempie will have a better answer for you though...

Fabiano Burzacca 02-12-2009 11:52 AM

Re: CFSB - Ask your questions here!
 
Kempie, thanks for the great idea, I think this thread is going to be a long living one.

Joshua Murphy 02-12-2009 11:59 AM

Re: CFSB - Ask your questions here!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Kemp (Post 517041)

When I started this I was managed to do 12-9-6 with 300lb deads. After 2 and a bit cycles I managed 17@330 and 11@360. I'm guessing that Linda at 300 is gonna be a bit easier next time round ...

Help any?

Cheers, kempie


Perfect...thanks!

Chris Kemp 02-12-2009 01:46 PM

Re: CFSB - Ask your questions here!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Belyeu (Post 517108)
Since you mentioned running.... I think the CFSB program sounds great and I started it Monday. I am trying to teach myself pose method running with vibram five fingers. I have started with a few short runs around my neighborhood, mixing in running at moderate pace and walking to either catch my breath or just keep fresh and maintain (hopefully) good form. I don't think it would be a big tax on the system, but since rest is stressed in this program, I am unsure on when/where to work on this. Would this be fine as active rest? Should I used this in place of one of the skill work times, or one of the metcons? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Jeff B - at the stage you're in I would treat your POSE running as skill work. Also, nothing stopping you from doing run based metcons. Keep them short and sharp though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Power (Post 517114)
Jeff(Martin),
Thanks for that, any thoughts on 5 on 2 off schedule to correspond to a work week? And could I sub in a power clean/push press instead of front squats to get more upper body work?

Jeff

Jeff P - I discussed a 5 day cycle in the other thread. For me I'd ditch the ME Back Squats and do High rep BS on Monday, take Wednesday off, Thurs ME Front squats and Fri Press. Lots of short sharp metcons. Your dead and squat are good but not immense for a big unit- I really think you would be better served by sticking with the ME basics and working things like your PC and PP in your metcons.

Once again, the program is a template. If you think your goals would be better served by tweaking it a little then go for it. Just don't blame the program for not producing results if you don't do the program.

Cheers, kempie

Justin McGinley 02-12-2009 01:47 PM

Re: CFSB - Ask your questions here!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by David Schneider (Post 517119)
Short jogs/runs working on POSE should be alright, as long as you're not running MARATHONS on rest days...

You could always incorporate short sprints into your metcons, they go great with heavy lifting. You could have them as a part of a couplet or triplet (e.g. Heavy power cleans & sprints) something like that.

Sprints + heavy lifting = brutal metcon. Sounds perfect for the program.

Jamie J. Skibicki 02-12-2009 01:53 PM

Re: CFSB - Ask your questions here!
 
I added in some tumbling work after my workout out today (I did 5 x 3 bench and 1 set of 17 and then 4 rounds of 500 meter row and 25 situps). Oh my god it was fun. I left the gym bouncing around. I know rolls are uber basic when it come to gymnastic but wow. I mean, I left the gym happy and energetic even though at several points I was absolutely beat.

Robert Callahan 02-12-2009 02:16 PM

Re: CFSB - Ask your questions here!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamie J. Skibicki (Post 517233)
I added in some tumbling work after my workout out today (I did 5 x 3 bench and 1 set of 17 and then 4 rounds of 500 meter row and 25 situps). Oh my god it was fun. I left the gym bouncing around. I know rolls are uber basic when it come to gymnastic but wow. I mean, I left the gym happy and energetic even though at several points I was absolutely beat.

Are you doing ME and High rep bench? I like where your head is at Skibicki... Maybe I will throw in some bench on Thursdays, been missing it since I have been doing CFSB....

Keep us posted on how your recovery goes and how/if it effects press day. I am most interested!

-Robert

David Schneider 02-12-2009 02:31 PM

Re: CFSB - Ask your questions here!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Callahan (Post 517249)
Are you doing ME and High rep bench? I like where your head is at Skibicki... Maybe I will throw in some bench on Thursdays, been missing it since I have been doing CFSB....

Keep us posted on how your recovery goes and how/if it effects press day. I am most interested!

-Robert

I'm doing the same thing Robert. I threw my ME + high rep Bench session in on Monday. So I have Bench, Back Squat, and metcon.

Ed Haywood 02-12-2009 02:43 PM

Re: CFSB - Ask your questions here!
 
Kempie, thanks for taking the time to answer questions. And thanks to Jeff and everyone else who developed this program. It fills a need.

A few questions:

1. How do you think the following pattern would work as a basic approach to adapting CFSB to the main site CF WOD cycle?

Day 1 - Metcon
Day 2 - Squat and half metcon
Day 3 - Deadlift and half metcon
Day 4 - rest
Day 1 - Metcon
Day 2 - Front Squat and half metcon
Day 3 - Deadlift and half metcon
Day 4 - rest


2. When the WOD is a metcon with a lifting component similar to the ME/HR movement, could we do the full WOD in lieu of the high rep set and short metcon? For instance, if the WOD is Mr Joshua (5 rounds with deadlift 15x250), could we do that in place of the high rep deadlifts and the short metcon on the deadlift day?

3. Is there a reason to avoid air squats immediately after the squat and front squat days, to improve recovery? Or will 300 air squats not affect recovery from a ME squat day?

4. Any other tips on selecting metcon components on days after ME days?

Jamie J. Skibicki 02-12-2009 02:54 PM

Re: CFSB - Ask your questions here!
 
Yes, ME and high rep. I do not disparage the bench, nor do I worship at it's alter.

I think I may switch the bench and deadlift days. That moves the deadlift away from the back squat and the bench away from the press.

CFSB Creators,

Is there a reason the back squat and deadlift are so close to each other? On first glance, this didn't seem like such a good idea, but I've not seen the gains you have, so I was wondering what your thinking on this was.



Also, someone asked earlier about Power Cleans. I remember Rip suggesting using Power Cleans to warm up your deadlift. You would work up to a pr or close to a pr on PCs and then raise the weight and begin to deadlift. I have not tried, so I can speak to it, but it seems like a good idea, I'm just not sure how it would affect recovery on this program.

Also, Instead of just press, you could try Clean and Press. It is the measure of a man.

Ed,

I would think that 2 deadlift days a week would be too much for an intermediate. I know they beat the hell out of me. Maybe back squat and RDL's, or O-lifting and RDL's or good mornings?

Chris Kemp 02-12-2009 03:06 PM

Re: CFSB - Ask your questions here!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Haywood (Post 517275)
Kempie, thanks for taking the time to answer questions. And thanks to Jeff and everyone else who developed this program. It fills a need.

A few questions:

1. How do you think the following pattern would work as a basic approach to adapting CFSB to the main site CF WOD cycle?

Day 1 - Metcon
Day 2 - Squat and half metcon
Day 3 - Deadlift and half metcon
Day 4 - rest
Day 1 - Metcon
Day 2 - Front Squat and half metcon
Day 3 - Deadlift and half metcon
Day 4 - rest


2. When the WOD is a metcon with a lifting component similar to the ME/HR movement, could we do the full WOD in lieu of the high rep set and short metcon? For instance, if the WOD is Mr Joshua (5 rounds with deadlift 15x250), could we do that in place of the high rep deadlifts and the short metcon on the deadlift day?

3. Is there a reason to avoid air squats immediately after the squat and front squat days, to improve recovery? Or will 300 air squats not affect recovery from a ME squat day?

4. Any other tips on selecting metcon components on days after ME days?

Ed, I'm guessing that you meant press on your second day 3 rather than repeating deads? ... If so, then yes, that would work very well I reckon so long as you have access to a gym on a 7 day basis. Nice thing about the fixed weekly plan is that you can schedule your lifts easily.

I would agree with your Mr Joshua example except that I'd still be tempted to cut it down to 3 rounds. That's just me though and if you don't mind a workout or two possibly suffering a little then the full thing wouldn't be a disaster.

The air squats is a similar thing. If you want to, try it. If it leaves too big a mark don't do it so much. If you get away with it then no problem.

Generally if I'm beat up after the heavy then I'll pick something light and snappy - mini Angie, mini Cindy, 5 rounds Nate, 5 rounds easy Mary.

After deads I like something with some oly work in it. Grace, Beth and their heavy variants, Isabelle, Nasty Girls or something moderately heavy and something gymnastic with 3-5 rounds of between 5 and 10 reps each

After squats Fran, Nancy, Josh (?OHS and Pull ups) and Karen have all worked well. Picking a similar movement pattern with lighter weight seems to make the metcon feel really light.

Other than that rowing or running sprints and heavy stuff is always special.

Cheers, kempie

Lee Hill 02-12-2009 03:17 PM

Re: CFSB - Ask your questions here!
 
Great thread, great answers chaps.

I've been doing this with one eye on Kempie's log since late November, basing it around the mainpage WOD but not as systemised. I am now considering a 6 week cycle as prescribed.

Question: For someone like myself who can only get to an affiliate 1/2 times per week and trains in a globo/home the rest, how would this work? I mean, if I follow the heavy CFSB program but when I rock up to my affiliate how can I match where I am in my planned week with what they have (sadistically) planned for that evening?

I suppose a second, open question is therefore would any affiliates other than brand X and maybe crossfit fredericton run or consider running this adaptative WOD philosophy?

Thanks for any opinion or advice

Robert Callahan 02-12-2009 03:24 PM

Re: CFSB - Ask your questions here!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamie J. Skibicki (Post 517286)
Yes, ME and high rep. I do not disparage the bench, nor do I worship at it's alter.

I think I may switch the bench and deadlift days. That moves the deadlift away from the back squat and the bench away from the press.

CFSB Creators,

Is there a reason the back squat and deadlift are so close to each other? On first glance, this didn't seem like such a good idea, but I've not seen the gains you have, so I was wondering what your thinking on this was.

I am not a CFSB creator, but it would seem to me that they are trying to keep a rest day in between the high rep DL and BS. I would think that 20 reps squats and high rep DLs are going to wreak havoc on recovery more than anything else and thus should be preformed with adequate rest in between. You could try something like this?

Mon: ME BS, High rep Bench, metcon
Tues: ME + high rep DL
Weds: rest
Thurs: ME Bench, metcon
Fri: ME FS, high rep BS, metcon
Sat: ME + high rep Press, metcon
Sun: rest

that way all the high rep stuff that utilizes similar body parts are separated by at least one rest day? I guess this is pretty similar to what David is doing, just a little more spread out with the Bench.... maybe his is better though? Well at least it is tested. How is that working out David??

-Robert

Chris Kemp 02-12-2009 03:30 PM

Re: CFSB - Ask your questions here!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee Hill (Post 517310)
Great thread, great answers chaps.

I've been doing this with one eye on Kempie's log since late November, basing it around the mainpage WOD but not as systemised. I am now considering a 6 week cycle as prescribed.

Question: For someone like myself who can only get to an affiliate 1/2 times per week and trains in a globo/home the rest, how would this work? I mean, if I follow the heavy CFSB program but when I rock up to my affiliate how can I match where I am in my planned week with what they have (sadistically) planned for that evening?

I suppose a second, open question is therefore would any affiliates other than brand X and maybe CrossFit fredericton run or consider running this adaptative WOD philosophy?

Thanks for any opinion or advice

Mate, you may say that your affiliate is uniquely positioned to sync with your needs. Hit me up offline and we will talk. For others I would suggest speaking to your coaches, explaining what you are trying to do and see whether there is some way that you can sort something out.

Will other affiliates run CFSB programming - almost undoubtedly. Just a question of how it is managed. I know that we will be playing with it

Cheers, kempie

Ed Haywood 02-12-2009 03:51 PM

Re: CFSB - Ask your questions here!
 
Thanks Kempie, great advice, lots to think on.

Darrell E. White 02-12-2009 05:57 PM

Re: CFSB - Ask your questions here!
 
Jeff Powers;

To piggy-back on Kempie's answer about upper body stuff I'm actually a pretty good example. Remember that my primary goal was to increase my strength so that I could lower my "Fran". The chink in my armor was strength and muscle endurance for that WOD. I have an injury-limited upper end on SP so we did lots of pressing as part of the short, heavy brutal met-cons. It's another variation of what Jeff Martin calls "compressing the upper range", decreasing the #'s between 1-, 3-, and 5-rep maxes.

An example might have been 5 Squat Clean Thrusters/Run 200M, 5 rounds for time, or 21-15-9 Heavy Push Press/PU. You can get an awful lot of mileage and work an awful lot of other exercises like Oly-lifts and bench (and heavy, too!) into the short met-cons.

Hope that helps.

--bingo

Note to self...learn how to do partial post quotes...

Jared Ashley 02-12-2009 06:24 PM

Re: CFSB - Ask your questions here!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Kemp (Post 517046)
Jamie, that could work. Depends on how much time you need to recover from benching before pressing. Could also consider adding your bench press day after deads and running a 3 on 1 off cycle or simply alternating bench and press every other week.

Just a case of making it fit with your capacities, goals and practical limitations.

Cheers, kempie

First off, I really like this program, and owe thanks to Jeff and his guinea-pigs!

In a similar note, I was thinking about inserting weighted pullups + high-rep pullups on that day.

In my case, 4 days a week just works better so I was considering making the 1st day BS + weighted pullups + high-rep pullups + 1/2 metcon, and then leaving out the metcon-only day.

S: BS+WPU+HRPU+metcon
M: rest
T: DL+HRDL+metcon
W: rest
T: FS+HRBS+metcon
F: P+HRP+metcon
S: rest

Just tiny tweaks, really... one for scheduling purposes (I'll take the metcon hit) and one because I like pullups, and would love to build pullup strength to the point where I can start working a 1-arm pullup (best so far is BW+78 lbs).

Michael Halbfish 02-12-2009 06:43 PM

Re: CFSB - Ask your questions here!
 
Jeff, Bingo et al., I am really excited about doing CFSB. Hopefully, we will see a CFE style CFSB web page posting daily WODS. Any thoughts on doing CFSB and CFE at the same time, or doing CFSB with other training.

My recent training (prior to this article )has consisted of
Workout 1 2 sets of 5 DL (PTP style), misc other stuff, Crossfit Wod.
Workout 2 CFE, every other CFE is running
Workout 2 On non CFE days either MaxfitUSA O-Lift WOD, MonkeyBarGym Metcon/Line Drill WOD, Yoga (approx twice weekly), misc. other stuff.

Z-Health, Mobility, balance training and misc. other stuff.


I'm also considering substituting one of the squat days each week for an O-Lift day, and either alternating press days with bench press or adding a set or 2 of benching to other heavy lift days. What are your thoughts?

James Riley 02-12-2009 07:16 PM

Re: CFSB - Ask your questions here!
 
Cool idea for thread, thanks.

Someone asked the same question I had in the other thread, and I donít think it was answered all the way; I would like to re-explore it from a different angle.

Here was the basic gist of the question:

1) Article says to use a starting weight 15-20% less then your current max. Why would I do that if I'm looking to max each week in 3's or 5's? Is it to lock in my form? I'm already familiar with heavy loads.

2) Assuming I do as I'm told and start with 20% less then current max, how many weeks should I take to ramp up to my current max?


Here was the answer:

No it's not a waste of time IMHO. I came into this program from Gant's Hybrid and got wrecked. Trust me RECOVERY IS KING when it comes to this program. Proceed with caution, because if you do this program correct it will lead to the town of PRs'ville, if you do it wrong you will get messed up.

So letís apply some math now. Say my 5RM for DL is 325. Taking 20% off for week one puts me at 265. Clearly not a new PR, but I can understand the reduced first week to help you prepare. But then how much are you going up per week? At 10 lbs per week it will take you the whole 6 week cycle to RETURN to your 5RM. Was that the authorís intent for the first six weeks of the program? Even at 20 lbs per week, it will be 4 weeks into the program before your seeing new PRs.

David Schneider 02-12-2009 07:22 PM

Re: CFSB - Ask your questions here!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert Callahan (Post 517317)
I am not a CFSB creator, but it would seem to me that they are trying to keep a rest day in between the high rep DL and BS. I would think that 20 reps squats and high rep DLs are going to wreak havoc on recovery more than anything else and thus should be preformed with adequate rest in between. You could try something like this?

Mon: ME BS, High rep Bench, metcon
Tues: ME + high rep DL
Weds: rest
Thurs: ME Bench, metcon
Fri: ME FS, high rep BS, metcon
Sat: ME + high rep Press, metcon
Sun: rest

that way all the high rep stuff that utilizes similar body parts are separated by at least one rest day? I guess this is pretty similar to what David is doing, just a little more spread out with the Bench.... maybe his is better though? Well at least it is tested. How is that working out David??

-Robert

It's going great Robert. I just started but it seems to be working. I put the ME Bench & the high rep Bench on the same day as the BS, as oppose to seperating the ME and High reps for the Bench. Don't know how much difference it would make, of course, I'm probably only going to Bench once a week, so I do it all right on Monday.

Michael Bruce Mailman 02-13-2009 12:37 AM

Re: CFSB - Ask your questions here!
 
I've been wondering... I haven't read the article yet, though of course I should have...

Are there no pull ups in this programme because one should be doing lots of pullups in the metcons?

Cheers

Chris Kemp 02-13-2009 02:07 AM

Re: CFSB - Ask your questions here!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by James Riley (Post 517434)
Cool idea for thread, thanks.

Someone asked the same question I had in the other thread, and I donít think it was answered all the way; I would like to re-explore it from a different angle.

Here was the basic gist of the question:

1) Article says to use a starting weight 15-20% less then your current max. Why would I do that if I'm looking to max each week in 3's or 5's? Is it to lock in my form? I'm already familiar with heavy loads.

2) Assuming I do as I'm told and start with 20% less then current max, how many weeks should I take to ramp up to my current max?


Here was the answer:

No it's not a waste of time IMHO. I came into this program from Gant's Hybrid and got wrecked. Trust me RECOVERY IS KING when it comes to this program. Proceed with caution, because if you do this program correct it will lead to the town of PRs'ville, if you do it wrong you will get messed up.

So letís apply some math now. Say my 5RM for DL is 325. Taking 20% off for week one puts me at 265. Clearly not a new PR, but I can understand the reduced first week to help you prepare. But then how much are you going up per week? At 10 lbs per week it will take you the whole 6 week cycle to RETURN to your 5RM. Was that the authorís intent for the first six weeks of the program? Even at 20 lbs per week, it will be 4 weeks into the program before your seeing new PRs.

James, let's you jump straight in with your 3 or 5 rep maxes. You say they are already pretty developed. Let's also add a high rep set at a large percentage of that load and then hammer a short often heavy metcon. Do this four days a week.

What do you reckon your chances of getting a PB on anything the following week is going to be?

This program is not only about doing some lifting and keeping up the metcon. It's about developing strength and conditioning that will carry across to our CrossFit workouts. There is a significant workload and in order to hit each facet with the requisiste intensity we've found it's best to ramp into it.

So yeah, the aim of the first cycle is to achieve your existing 3 and 5 RM's whilst adapting to the other demands of the program.

Perhaps the prescription will seem conservative to some who pride themselves on being able to handle lots of abuse. By all means, hasten the process if you think you're tougher than that. But presenting a program to the world we'll take a slightly conservative approach so folks have a chance to see the measurable repeatable results that we've observed.

Cheers, kempie

Chris Kemp 02-13-2009 02:13 AM

Re: CFSB - Ask your questions here!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Bruce Mailman (Post 517590)
I've been wondering... I haven't read the article yet, though of course I should have...

Are there no pull ups in this programme because one should be doing lots of pullups in the metcons?

Cheers

Michael, there are lots of things that aren't in the program. It's a program template. The drills specified are some of the best bang for buck for developing strength.

Leaving anything out just meant that for developing strength they weren't the best. Doesn't mean they are not good or useful. So if there is anything else you want to do or think is missing then plug it into the metcons, gymnastic practice sessions or warm-up.

Cheers, kempie

Jerry Mobbs 02-13-2009 03:04 AM

Re: CFSB - Ask your questions here!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shane Skowron (Post 517052)
How did a cycle of CFSB affect your monostructural performances? Positive, negative, or, neither? E.g. times at 5k run, 2k row, etc.

It kicked ***. Big time.

I put on 4kg using CFSB and am at 100kg BW.

My 5km time went from 30 mins to 27:15 today wearing vibrams.

The last 400m was in 1:50 with plenty left in the tank.

This was a big surprise.

Jerry Mobbs 02-13-2009 03:20 AM

Re: CFSB - Ask your questions here!
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Belyeu (Post 517108)
Since you mentioned running.... I think the CFSB program sounds great and I started it Monday. I am trying to teach myself pose method running with vibram five fingers. I have started with a few short runs around my neighborhood, mixing in running at moderate pace and walking to either catch my breath or just keep fresh and maintain (hopefully) good form. I don't think it would be a big tax on the system, but since rest is stressed in this program, I am unsure on when/where to work on this. Would this be fine as active rest? Should I used this in place of one of the skill work times, or one of the metcons? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Jeff,

This is just my opinion based on my own experience.

1. Wear the VFF all the time, including WODS if you can. Box jumps, snatches and lunges all help you to get used to them

2. If its early days running with them, then really focus on form. As soon as it breaks down, then stop and reset, even if you lose intensity. It's hard enough learning to pose without reinforcing it with bad form.

3. Add some light runs into the warm up. Do a 400m run one day, then 4 slow 100m runs etc. Mix it up and keep good form.

4. After 3/4 months you will find yourself going longer and faster in the VFF. If you rush too quickly, you can end up with really bad calf soreness and it just knocks back progress.

5. If your self taught, then get a coach, or video yourself and get it critiqued by a pose coach.

6. Avoid Helen type efforts in the early days, until your pose form is nailed down. How does it go again? Mechanics- Consistency.....

Hope this helps

Jerry

David Mathews 02-13-2009 08:30 AM

Re: CFSB - Ask your questions here!
 
Kempie,
Do you always do heavy metcons without exception or do you sometimes do short light ones like Coach Rut uses on his ME days, and do you ever do long ones (e.g. murph, filthy fifties, etc.) in this program? Do you ever do the painstorms anymore? Thanks.

Robert Flynn 02-13-2009 08:44 AM

Re: CFSB - Ask your questions here!
 
Kempie,
Thanks for starting this thread, it has been helpful. Today is front squat day. Would you recommend follwing the posted WOD of Fran, or find something that is not a similar exercise?
Thanks,
Rob


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:12 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
CrossFit is a registered trademark of CrossFit Inc.