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-   -   Eating for strength Vs Eating for size (http://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=71654)

Ben Croese 11-22-2011 01:18 AM

Eating for strength Vs Eating for size
 
Is there a difference between one's calorie needs when eating for strength Vs size?

Ie. if u wanted to maintain weight but get stronger, are u required to create a calorie surplus for contractile hypertophy, or just eat to maintain weight and strength gains will come? I know neuromuscular adaptations increase stength and i assume that doesn't require calories to happen, but does increasing the contrailile proteins?

Katherine Derbyshire 11-22-2011 01:23 AM

Re: Eating for strength Vs Eating for size
 
Obviously if you want to maintain weight you don't need as much food as if you're trying to gain.

You do need to eat enough to recover from your workouts, though. Let your body worry about what exactly the muscle fibers are doing.

Katherine

Eric J Leon 11-22-2011 07:10 AM

Re: Eating for strength Vs Eating for size
 
To answer you with a question what type of size are you looking for?

Both gaining strength and size require a caloric surplus for a trained individual.

Thanks to the novice effect though an untrained individual on the other hand could certainly lose body fat, and gain strength without a caloric surplus.

For strength without concern for what type of size your putting on quantity is probably more important than quality. Looking into powerlifters and cramming.

For gaining lean body mass quality and quantity are important. You might want to look into bodybuilding nutrition on this side.

I'm sure everything I just wrote could be torn apart. Best always to do your own research and arrive at your own personal conclusions.

Michael Loucas 11-22-2011 11:23 AM

Re: Eating for strength Vs Eating for size
 
You can try looking into the anabolic diet. It specializes at keeping you at the same weight while increasing strength. (Burning fat while building muscle) My friend went on it and he had good results, but like any diet you have to follow it exactly or you'll just end up getting fat. And you have to be active as well.

Chris Mason 11-22-2011 11:31 AM

Re: Eating for strength Vs Eating for size
 
I'm on my phone and typing a long response is a pain in the ***. I will post a response later.

Ben Croese 11-22-2011 07:37 PM

Re: Eating for strength Vs Eating for size
 
cheers for the replys so far!

I asked because i overheard a coversation about nutrition and the words "eating for strength is different to eating for size" stood out to me. So that got me thinking and wanting to know more.

I understand that an increase in muscle size doesn't necessarily mean an increase in strength. It's more an increase in strength potential. (i assume this means extra room now available to build more contractile proteins).
So how does nutrient requirements come into play for the various types of hypertrophy?

ie. does myofibrilar hypertrophy have less carb needs (due to the lower rep scheme) and more emphasis on fat intake to get total calories. And does scarcoplasmic hypertrophy require more carbs due to higher rep range and greater glycogen depletion etc?. I guess my question here is if i'm making a calorie surplus is there a particular nutrient(s) u should be providing more of for the different goals? Or provided you've met protein requirements it doesn't matter where the calories come from to make up the extra calories needed to gain.

Ben Norris 11-22-2011 07:54 PM

Re: Eating for strength Vs Eating for size
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben Croese (Post 1007320)
cheers for the replys so far!

I asked because i overheard a coversation about nutrition and the words "eating for strength is different to eating for size" stood out to me. So that got me thinking and wanting to know more.

I understand that an increase in muscle size doesn't necessarily mean an increase in strength. It's more an increase in strength potential. (i assume this means extra room now available to build more contractile proteins).
So how does nutrient requirements come into play for the various types of hypertrophy?

ie. does myofibrilar hypertrophy have less carb needs (due to the lower rep scheme) and more emphasis on fat intake to get total calories. And does scarcoplasmic hypertrophy require more carbs due to higher rep range and greater glycogen depletion etc?. I guess my question here is if i'm making a calorie surplus is there a particular nutrient(s) u should be providing more of for the different goals? Or provided you've met protein requirements it doesn't matter where the calories come from to make up the extra calories needed to gain.

It sounds to me like you may be overthinking things here. You want to get stronger and you are not a 15 year old skinny kid who has never touched a weight before, you will need a calorie excess to help strength gain. (I know you can gain strength without weight gain through an increase in neural patterns) but that will eventually run out and you will need to increase food intake (carbs, fats, proteins) to increase strength faster.

My advice on what to eat if you want to get strong is alot of meat/eggs/milk. IE treat all meals like an all you can eat buffet. Also dont bother counting calories, as the time it takes you to break out the calculator you could have eaten some food, or be in the process of cooking more food :D

Ben Croese 11-22-2011 09:03 PM

Re: Eating for strength Vs Eating for size
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben Norris (Post 1007332)
It sounds to me like you may be overthinking things here.

I know what ur saying. But this is more about wanting to know why rather than "help me fix my diet". I wanted to start a discussion among those with good knowledge in the hope to get a clearer picture as to why the process happens and if the diet is tweaked the right way can lead to cleaner gains and less fat storage.

Lets take weight loss for example. We all know that u need to consume less calories than u expend. But if u created the deficit by reducing protein intake the result will b muscle loss. So a good method seems to be to increase protein to reduce muscle loss, reduce carbs to keep insulin under control and make the rest up with fat. Within the calories needed there is a reason for for the selection and amounts of each nutrient.

So for muscle/strength gain is there a similar type of reasoning for nutrient amounts within the calories needed?

Chris Mason 11-22-2011 09:24 PM

Re: Eating for strength Vs Eating for size
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben Croese (Post 1007043)
Is there a difference between one's calorie needs when eating for strength Vs size?

Ie. if u wanted to maintain weight but get stronger, are u required to create a calorie surplus for contractile hypertophy, or just eat to maintain weight and strength gains will come? I know neuromuscular adaptations increase stength and i assume that doesn't require calories to happen, but does increasing the contrailile proteins?

Ben,

In a very basic and general sense strength is due to the force production capacity of the contractile myofibrils and the nervous system.

So, to answer part of your question, you can get significantly stronger without adding lean muscle tissue if you train the neural component of strength. You don't need to be in a caloric surplus to do so.

Hypertrophy, does not necessarily require a caloric surplus, but it is very tricky to achieve in anyone but a rote beginner without it. The surplus need not be huge, and frankly, determining what is a surplus is difficult because knowing your true daily caloric expenditure is nigh impossible.

So, what I would recommend is you train specifically for hypertrophy without increasing your caloric intake at first. If you are not overtraining and growth does not occur, then bump your current daily intake by 300 cals and see what happens and so on.

Ben Norris 11-22-2011 10:19 PM

Re: Eating for strength Vs Eating for size
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Mason (Post 1007365)
Ben,

In a very basic and general sense strength is due to the force production capacity of the contractile myofibrils and the nervous system.

So, to answer part of your question, you can get significantly stronger without adding lean muscle tissue if you train the neural component of strength. You don't need to be in a caloric surplus to do so.

Hypertrophy, does not necessarily require a caloric surplus, but it is very tricky to achieve in anyone but a rote beginner without it. The surplus need not be huge, and frankly, determining what is a surplus is difficult because knowing your true daily caloric expenditure is nigh impossible.

So, what I would recommend is you train specifically for hypertrophy without increasing your caloric intake at first. If you are not overtraining and growth does not occur, then bump your current daily intake by 300 cals and see what happens and so on.


Sorry Ben thought you were asking for yourself. My bad! Good to see another Aussie on board BTW.

Chris, sorry for going slightly off topic here, but I was wondering, you bring up overtraining a particular movement alot. Are you talking about no longer adapting to the imposed demand of lets say a LBBS from a physical point of view or are you talking about it from a Neurological standpoint?

I assume that a guy squatting 800+ pounds would probs overtrain his squat if he were to do lots of reps often, but how lightly is it that somebody who squats 400 and less would get overtrained from excessive squatting? I am wondering if the problem is far more previlant in the Powerlifting community as opposed to the Crossfit/ everybody else due to the massive weights you chuck about. Cheers :)


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