IF and workout timing questions

Jason Billows · 05-09-2006, 08:22 AM

I have read up on IF and am going to give it a try, but am having some challenges sorting out my schedule.

From what I have read, I should be doing about a 15 hour fast to make it worth while. Would 13 hours affect my results substantially? I expect it would not be as effective, which is why I'm having trouble with my schedule.

To get a minimum of 15 hours fasting I expect I will have to wait and eat at noon, which is about 4 or 5 hours after my morning workout. Is this a problem or do I need to workout at the end of my fast?

Also, if I start my fast at about 7pm I'm concerned about the affects of playing underwater hockey in the evening (pretty intense workout in iteself) a couple nights a week between 8:30 and 10:30pm. Will I be okay without a meal following my training/game and then the WOD in the morning before my 12pm meal?

Thanks for your help.

Garrett Smith · 05-09-2006, 09:59 AM

Jason,
I'd suggest you move into it slowly. Worrying about it too much will likely do more damage than modifying the fast periods too much.

I'd say have a couple of blocks' worth of snack (I do three) after your underwater hockey game. It's only a couple of days a week.

I don't believe 13 hours vs. 15 hours would be that big of a deal. You could always start with 13, then figure out how to arrange your schedule for 15.

Remember that nature punishes the specialist. If you "train" your body to expect a 13 or 15 hour schedule all the time, what will happen if you don't adhere to it for several days? I'd say your time to "randomize" your fasting times would be on your high-training days. Just imagine you got lucky hunting/gathering twice in one day! :biggrin:

Scott Hagnas · 05-09-2006, 03:46 PM

Always remember that IF stands for "intermittent fasting". Just like Dr. G said, if you always fast 15 hours - then your body will expect this routine. I try never to repeat the same schedule from one day to the next.

Scott Hagnas
CrossFit Portland

05-10-2006, 06:00 PM

Hi, I have a question about IF. Currently I'm taking class in the morning so I cannot workout early. I'm having my first meal around lunch time. Is it better to workout in the afternoon, while I'm feeding, or would it be better to workout right before lunch after class - I feel that this is when I'd be weakest since I'm at the end of a fast vs. During feeding when I have nutrients?

Secondly, is it okay to have caffine during the fast - coffee or tea in the morning? Tea after my last meal during the evening?

Thanks in advance.

Scott Kustes · 05-10-2006, 07:37 PM

Andrew, I workout at the end of my fast....haven't had a near-Pukie experience in months since going to this method. Hard to puke with nothing in the stomach. Hopefully I don't meet Dry Heavie.

I have tea most mornings, but don't know if this causes any changes in the IF. I'd assume it's positive given the positives of low levels of caffiene intake. Tea in the evening should probably be caffiene free. Or get some chamomile tea and put yourself to sleep.

Daniel Miller · 05-10-2006, 07:40 PM

Andrew,
Ideally it would be good to get some training in during the fasted state. I think it depends largely on one's goal and or stats (health, performance, lose fat, gain muscle etc).
Main stream exercise and nutrition dogma (what you learn at most university’s) would say it doesn't matter much when you exercise just as long as you do it...I think there is some carry over to the WOD in that regard.
I'd say vary your approach. Someday exercise after class before lunch, other days mid-afternoon or prior to your last meal of the day.
I read the warrior diet book a while ago; the author says it is fine to have caffeine during your fast.
So if you're used to caffeine then have some.
Hope this helps.
-Dan

Greg Everett · 05-10-2006, 07:41 PM

Andrew - training on the fasted state will be better if you're primary goal is leaning out/metabolic conditioning. If you're more interested in gaining weight, you're probably better off training at least after a shot of protein.

reasonable amounts of caffeine on the fast are fine, but you'll most likely find that your need for it will diminish.

Jonathon Edward · 05-12-2006, 09:11 PM

I'm all for CrossFit and its fairly randomized approach to optimizing fitness. I'm also all for eating patterns that are non-linear; however, I don't think that there is going to be any great advantage to constantly varying one's length or type of fasting. The studies on IF that have shown remarkable benefits have all been done using a day on/day off protocol. At this point I don't think we can, with any certainty, discuss the efficacy of a compressed frame of eating fasting pattern, let alone an extremely randomized one.

It kind of puzzles me that we have people who adhere to Zone macronutrient ratios for all of their meals yet advocate randomized fasting due to the fact that "nature punishes the specialist." If this is truly the logic behind mixing up the length or type of fasting, how does following a rigid set of macronutrient rules make any sense at all?

Scott Hagnas · 05-13-2006, 10:29 AM

Jonathon-

I agree that we are just experiments of one at this point if we follow a pattern other than the day on/day off. However, after a year of doing this, I think that I can feel when my body makes the shift to a lowered metabolic rate - usually after 10-12 hours or so. My breathing slows, and I often feel cold or chilled. After that point, it is just a matter of how long I want to prolong it - longer being probably more beneficial. My average fasts have become longer lately.

I don't follow a static macronutrient plan like the zone - I mix that up as well. Somewhat day to day, but primarily seasonally. Lower carb winter, higher in the summer. I try to make seasonal food choices, and will go thru periods where I drop certain foods from my diet for a while so as not to overload any metabolic pathways.

Art Devany's blog recently has a good post relating to this.

Scott Hagnas
CrossFit Portland

Jonathon Edward · 05-13-2006, 01:43 PM

Scott,

Points well taken. You have a certain "body knowledge" that most lack, that in my opinion allows you to be so successful implementing a genuine intermittent feeding strategy. The problem I have with recommending that people just "wing it" when it comes to IF is that many people will wind up undereating and subsequently sacrifice LBM and performance. And like I said previously, the sciencee behind this type of protocol is in its infancy at best. IMO, for most individuals, the cons currently outweight the pros when it comes to randomized fasting.

I respect the fact that you fully embrace the non-linear concept of eating. I really don't understand how one can embrace the concept of random fasts while adhering to stringent rules about macro ratios. Given the fact that most are following IF from an evolutionary standpoint, a varied macro profile would make a lot more sense (like your plan for instance).

One thing that's been on my mind though is the video that Robb posted of you not too long ago in a thread about caloric restriction. He said something to the effect of "you can build a pretty physique with IF," and then posted a link to the video. While your bodyfat is obviously extremely low, you seem to be a bit undermuscled (not an insult in any way). I'm curious whether this has anything to do with your implementation of IF? While this might be beneficial for health and longevity, I'd think it would negatively effect performance by departing from an ideal strength to weight ratio.

DeVany's blog always has great stuff. He's made a huge contribution to my understanding of a non-linear approach to health and fitness.

05-10-2006, 06:00 PM	#4
Andrew Steeves Profile: Posts: n/a	Hi, I have a question about IF. Currently I'm taking class in the morning so I cannot workout early. I'm having my first meal around lunch time. Is it better to workout in the afternoon, while I'm feeding, or would it be better to workout right before lunch after class - I feel that this is when I'd be weakest since I'm at the end of a fast vs. During feeding when I have nutrients? Secondly, is it okay to have caffine during the fast - coffee or tea in the morning? Tea after my last meal during the evening? Thanks in advance.
Andrew Steeves Profile: Posts: n/a

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05-09-2006, 08:22 AM	#1
Jason Billows Member Profile: Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Ottawa Ontario Posts: 384	I have read up on IF and am going to give it a try, but am having some challenges sorting out my schedule. From what I have read, I should be doing about a 15 hour fast to make it worth while. Would 13 hours affect my results substantially? I expect it would not be as effective, which is why I'm having trouble with my schedule. To get a minimum of 15 hours fasting I expect I will have to wait and eat at noon, which is about 4 or 5 hours after my morning workout. Is this a problem or do I need to workout at the end of my fast? Also, if I start my fast at about 7pm I'm concerned about the affects of playing underwater hockey in the evening (pretty intense workout in iteself) a couple nights a week between 8:30 and 10:30pm. Will I be okay without a meal following my training/game and then the WOD in the morning before my 12pm meal? Thanks for your help.

05-09-2006, 09:59 AM	#2
Garrett Smith Member Profile: Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Tucson AZ Posts: 2,264	Jason, I'd suggest you move into it slowly. Worrying about it too much will likely do more damage than modifying the fast periods too much. I'd say have a couple of blocks' worth of snack (I do three) after your underwater hockey game. It's only a couple of days a week. I don't believe 13 hours vs. 15 hours would be that big of a deal. You could always start with 13, then figure out how to arrange your schedule for 15. Remember that nature punishes the specialist. If you "train" your body to expect a 13 or 15 hour schedule all the time, what will happen if you don't adhere to it for several days? I'd say your time to "randomize" your fasting times would be on your high-training days. Just imagine you got lucky hunting/gathering twice in one day! :biggrin:

05-09-2006, 03:46 PM	#3
Scott Hagnas Affiliate Profile: Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Washougal WA Posts: 106	Always remember that IF stands for "intermittent fasting". Just like Dr. G said, if you always fast 15 hours - then your body will expect this routine. I try never to repeat the same schedule from one day to the next. Scott Hagnas CrossFit Portland

05-10-2006, 07:37 PM	#5
Scott Kustes Member Profile: Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Louisville KY Posts: 1,249	Andrew, I workout at the end of my fast....haven't had a near-Pukie experience in months since going to this method. Hard to puke with nothing in the stomach. Hopefully I don't meet Dry Heavie. I have tea most mornings, but don't know if this causes any changes in the IF. I'd assume it's positive given the positives of low levels of caffiene intake. Tea in the evening should probably be caffiene free. Or get some chamomile tea and put yourself to sleep.

05-10-2006, 07:40 PM	#6
Daniel Miller Member Profile: Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: St Louis MO Posts: 124	Andrew, Ideally it would be good to get some training in during the fasted state. I think it depends largely on one's goal and or stats (health, performance, lose fat, gain muscle etc). Main stream exercise and nutrition dogma (what you learn at most university’s) would say it doesn't matter much when you exercise just as long as you do it...I think there is some carry over to the WOD in that regard. I'd say vary your approach. Someday exercise after class before lunch, other days mid-afternoon or prior to your last meal of the day. I read the warrior diet book a while ago; the author says it is fine to have caffeine during your fast. So if you're used to caffeine then have some. Hope this helps. -Dan

05-10-2006, 07:41 PM	#7
Greg Everett Affiliate Profile: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Sunnyvale CA Posts: 1,063	Andrew - training on the fasted state will be better if you're primary goal is leaning out/metabolic conditioning. If you're more interested in gaining weight, you're probably better off training at least after a shot of protein. reasonable amounts of caffeine on the fast are fine, but you'll most likely find that your need for it will diminish.

05-12-2006, 09:11 PM	#8
Jonathon Edward Member Profile: Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Orlando FL Posts: 244	I'm all for CrossFit and its fairly randomized approach to optimizing fitness. I'm also all for eating patterns that are non-linear; however, I don't think that there is going to be any great advantage to constantly varying one's length or type of fasting. The studies on IF that have shown remarkable benefits have all been done using a day on/day off protocol. At this point I don't think we can, with any certainty, discuss the efficacy of a compressed frame of eating fasting pattern, let alone an extremely randomized one. It kind of puzzles me that we have people who adhere to Zone macronutrient ratios for all of their meals yet advocate randomized fasting due to the fact that "nature punishes the specialist." If this is truly the logic behind mixing up the length or type of fasting, how does following a rigid set of macronutrient rules make any sense at all?

05-13-2006, 10:29 AM	#9
Scott Hagnas Affiliate Profile: Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Washougal WA Posts: 106	Jonathon- I agree that we are just experiments of one at this point if we follow a pattern other than the day on/day off. However, after a year of doing this, I think that I can feel when my body makes the shift to a lowered metabolic rate - usually after 10-12 hours or so. My breathing slows, and I often feel cold or chilled. After that point, it is just a matter of how long I want to prolong it - longer being probably more beneficial. My average fasts have become longer lately. I don't follow a static macronutrient plan like the zone - I mix that up as well. Somewhat day to day, but primarily seasonally. Lower carb winter, higher in the summer. I try to make seasonal food choices, and will go thru periods where I drop certain foods from my diet for a while so as not to overload any metabolic pathways. Art Devany's blog recently has a good post relating to this. Scott Hagnas CrossFit Portland

05-13-2006, 01:43 PM	#10
Jonathon Edward Member Profile: Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Orlando FL Posts: 244	Scott, Points well taken. You have a certain "body knowledge" that most lack, that in my opinion allows you to be so successful implementing a genuine intermittent feeding strategy. The problem I have with recommending that people just "wing it" when it comes to IF is that many people will wind up undereating and subsequently sacrifice LBM and performance. And like I said previously, the sciencee behind this type of protocol is in its infancy at best. IMO, for most individuals, the cons currently outweight the pros when it comes to randomized fasting. I respect the fact that you fully embrace the non-linear concept of eating. I really don't understand how one can embrace the concept of random fasts while adhering to stringent rules about macro ratios. Given the fact that most are following IF from an evolutionary standpoint, a varied macro profile would make a lot more sense (like your plan for instance). One thing that's been on my mind though is the video that Robb posted of you not too long ago in a thread about caloric restriction. He said something to the effect of "you can build a pretty physique with IF," and then posted a link to the video. While your bodyfat is obviously extremely low, you seem to be a bit undermuscled (not an insult in any way). I'm curious whether this has anything to do with your implementation of IF? While this might be beneficial for health and longevity, I'd think it would negatively effect performance by departing from an ideal strength to weight ratio. DeVany's blog always has great stuff. He's made a huge contribution to my understanding of a non-linear approach to health and fitness.