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Old 05-23-2014, 05:24 AM   #41
Price Goosby
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Re: Regional Competitor - "CF is not a Sport"

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Originally Posted by Greg Spaight View Post
I was a pro bike racer in college. No one paid me bupkis. I lost my amateur status when I won and accepted prize money in a race...
This has always been my interpretation of professional and most organizations tend to use this as well. If you have been awarded money as reimbursement for your efforts as a prize regardless of skill, you're a professional.

Heck, I think even American Idol had a rule stating it at one point.
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Old 05-26-2014, 07:46 AM   #42
Amy Quenzer
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Re: Regional Competitor - "CF is not a Sport"

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Originally Posted by Jenni Hartman View Post
There were some guys from my gym that were first-time Regional judges that were assigned to Akinwale and Tovar. I don't think they are pre-selected. I will say that they had other judging experience (local comps, etc), but it's just luck of the draw - it's assigned by heat and lane ahead of time, whoever you get is who you get.
**sorry Jenni I'm not targeting your post; I couldn't figure out how to respond using the multi-quote **
I judged at North Central this year. I have been Crossfitting for over 4 1/2 years, have a current L1 and of course passed the online Judges course. The online course is important, but I don't feel it prepares you for a live event of Regionals caliber. I have judged at multiple local competitions and also judged hundreds of the online videos during the Open. For me, Judging is an incredible honor and my way of giving back to the Crossfit community that has changed my life in so many ways. I take it extremely seriously and treat it as if it was my regular job. In my opinion, the last reason anyone should ever apply to Judge at the Regionals or Games is to actually enjoy the event, or expect to get anything out of it other than rewarding work of serving the community. We have 12-13 hour days at the venue and 110% of your attention should be given to the athlete that is in front of you (as well as what might be going on behind/beside you - it's tight out there and I had things dropped on me a few times) I can only hope that all volunteers have this same mentality, but I don't think that's the case with some. Some might be there for the wrong reasons. We had a great group at North Central however we had some simply disappear and just not show up after the first day.

The HQ staff that lead the Judges were incredibly thorough and did everything they could to prepare us for each and every event. We did have 2 hour briefings every morning, 1 hour in the evening, and a huddle before every event. We constantly had 3 head Judges on the floor with us watching over our work and, although I didn't realize this at the time, resulted in some Judges being cut after the first day. Some of the less experienced Judges may have been placed in Tovar, Akinwale, Kasperbauer's lanes in early events, but the Judges that were in those lanes on the last day for the Team's & Individual's final events were hand selected by the Director and head Judges. They may not know which particular athlete/team will be in those lanes immediately before the heat, but they do know which lanes (middle lanes) the top 3-5 will be in. I was honored to be selected to be in Akinwale's & Heppner's lane at the overhead squats for event 7.

When we volunteer to Judge at the Games, we are only placed to Judge the Master's events and some of the Team events. The Judges for Individuals are paid Headquarters staff.

This being said, because I do take it so seriously, I also wish there were a way to establish some consistency and incentive for those of us that are consistent and performed well in the past. We all know CrossFit will continue to evolve and competitions will only become more intense so hopefully we'll see some changes in the system. I read the article and feel he made some good suggestions. I feel I gave it everything I had and it's hard to see these articles and posts with the general opinion that all Judges are bad because we're volunteers and have no accountability and because of a few Judges that ruin it for the rest of us that take it seriously. Also, as someone mentioned, no matter how hard we work, there is an element of human error. I'm sure some of my calls weren't perfect and I may have missed some. But among the miscounting and bad calls that you see out there, there are excellent Judges right in the next lane doing their absolute best to make consistent calls and keeping communication clear for all competitors.

Last edited by Amy Quenzer : 05-26-2014 at 09:02 AM.
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Old 05-26-2014, 08:23 AM   #43
Diana Alt
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Re: Regional Competitor - "CF is not a Sport"

Amy,

Thanks so much for posting this excellent summary of how judging at the North Central regional worked. Even though I saw some questionable judging at North Central, including a couple of really bad calls that hurt the team from my gym, overall I'd say the judging at this regional was as consistent as any competition I've ever seen. (I was there in person, for the record).

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Old 05-27-2014, 09:21 AM   #44
Adam Shreim
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Re: Regional Competitor - "CF is not a Sport"

The first thing I do when I watch any feed or footage of a workout involving ANY type of squat is start "no-repping" at my screen. There are so, so, so, so many competitors that are Level 1/Level 2 coaches, own boxes, ect. that do NOT squat to even AT parallell, much less below it.

Squats, wall balls, thrusters, pistols, whatever it is, you name it, it seriously looks like 75%+ of people are cheating it. It would drive me insane if I were competing with people not hitting full ROM. Heck, it DOES drive me insane even just watching it.

I tell you what though, I hardly ever question Froning's movement standards. To see how he does his reps, compared to some of the guys chasing him, legitimizes (sp?) his champion status, to me.

Even some short and mobile guys are not squatting low enough.

I don't even watch to touch on other movements, because they say the squat should be perfected before everything else. Well, why can't we get "elite athletes" to perfect it, especially in a judged event?

Unless I was seriously as athletic as Rich, I would never be able to compete in the Regionals/Games. I would get too distracted and upset at people around me.
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Old 05-27-2014, 05:59 PM   #45
Chuck Golden
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Re: Regional Competitor - "CF is not a Sport"

For someone a bit more tech savy than me, Budding (or someone affiliated with the NPFL) said they're researching ways to use technology to determine proper movement standards. Something like sensors on the hip crease and on the knee so that you could ensure depth or determine lockout at the top of a snatch etc.

That all seems great but how hard would something like that he to equip a couple dozen athletes or more?
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Old 05-28-2014, 04:26 PM   #46
Michael Capalbo
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Re: Regional Competitor - "CF is not a Sport"

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Originally Posted by Chuck Golden View Post
http://www.havokjournal.com/fitness/...is-not-a-sport (WFS)

Pretty interesting read. I'm not close enough to the events to know if some of his complaints are valid or not but his "solutions" in the second part of the article are pretty interesting. Having official qualifying competitions in the "offseason" would keep CF from going dark after the Games. If the judging is as bad as he says, and I think we all saw some blatantly bad calls this weekend, then it probably is time for some kind of "paid, professional judging."

What are everyone else's thoughts on this?

Interesting articles. My thoughts...

1. CF is already doing quite well even "going dark" after the Games. Every sport has its off-season. These non-CF-sanctioned comps fill a void nicely even if a shot at the Games isn't at take (see below).

2. Part of the appeal of The Games and these competitions in general is that you get one shot a year to get there. It brings a lot of drama to these comps. There's only a limited number of spots for Regionals and Games anyway, so you can't add other ways to qualify without taking away ways to qualify from somewhere else. If someone would be good enough to qualify during these "off-season" comps then they ought to be good enough to qualify during the Open.

3. No shiat the Open doesn't necessarily screen for "who would do best at Regionals" and that's fine IMO. The Open tests people for some things and if you do really well at those some things, you'll get to get tested some for other things during Regionals. I'm sure there are a lot of people who would do well in the Regionals' "heavier" workouts but who were screened out by the Opens' lighter, speed, high-rep workouts. This year's Regionals (the individual comp) didn't see any high-rep thrusters, but should anyone be allowed to compete in the Regionals if they can't really bang them out? I say no way.

4. Yes the judges need to be upgraded as these competitions keep on becoming more and more of "a big deal". They weren't nearly such a big deal in 2008, not too long ago. BUT uneven officiating is an issue in all the major-league sports.

5. Actually, Magic Johnson and David Stern (NBA Commissioner) used to talk a lot when Magic was a player. He had a lot more access to DS' ear than the average guy sitting on the end of the New Jersey Nets' bench.

6. I'm sorry the author was subject to such blatant racism.

Last edited by Michael Capalbo : 05-28-2014 at 04:39 PM.
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Old 05-30-2014, 12:48 PM   #47
Clint Harris
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Re: Regional Competitor - "CF is not a Sport"

I think they should reduce the number of regionals - especially in US. This will reduce the logistical overhead of equipment, judges experience, etc but also deepen the fields.
I don't know about anyone else, but most of the Regionals I don't watch nor do I really have any idea who's there. Of the one's I do watch, it's typically only that last heat. Even then, that last heat isn't a fully competitive one.
e.g. Massive gap between top 4 and bottom 4 in that "elite" heat alone.

I did try to watch some of the "first heats" when I knew someone, the camera work isn't very inclusive so you don't get to see them anyway ... perhaps in the background. Even if they're in the lead on the outside lane. Not even HQ commentated them so there's clearly a disconnect. It's like a token thing.

Let's face it, the Regionals are currently top 6 at best and then the rest. Anyone outside the top 6 is not competitive (in some regions it's 2-4). They may be "competing" .... but not competitive in that they add to any excitement/drama in watching it.

How do you get around the "3 spots" with the reduced regional ? You increase them - potentially proportionally based off of the number of entrants into said region. With more spots, if the "stars" have one bad workout - either through judging or just bombing - then they'll be less likely to miss out but will still have to fight for a spot (and it be realistic they get one). We would also see newer guys or people who'd make it in other regions come through more often too. Kill the wildcard debate.

I think this will also solve the lack of watchability of heat's 1-3 (and even 2nd half of heat 4).

Let's say we redraw South East so it combines parts of Central East, North and South Central and Mid Atlantic - Like through Louisiana, up through AK, across Kentucky and Virginia. (People in other codes already travel these distances for their chosen sport). With bigger regions, the qual spots will increase. Those top competitors will still get in based on being 1st or 4th but the fight that occurs will be more exciting.
Not only will it strengthen the Team Events, but the individual competition will also be better. It will bring some of the weaker regions (or filled with no-names) up to speed but also pit Foucher against Em B and Talayna F to prevent a complete runaway "non-event" for Foucher's case. Put some form of prize on the line so those top 3 just don't dial it in and we end up with a legitimate fight for first and 6th or 7th where the cut line would now be. We'd literally have more athletes fighting it out and the last 2 heats would be worth watching. It'd probably develop the athletes faster too based off of the competition that is now there.
No doubt, in this new SE region, we would still see Froning, Panchik, Ohlsen, Smith qualify, but we may also see the likes of Holmberg and Hendren go (assuming they all remain in new region - but they'd make it in their new one too). Other guys like Moorad and Schrader will be still fighting it out and making it .... but we'd at least have a really deep fight on our hands and make the games that much deeper too. There wouldn't be 2nd and 3rd in weak regions battling out for last place at the games. We'd have a deeper games field too.

Redrawing some of the other Regions might look like. North East include Canada East, the rest of Central East, part of North Central. North West contains Canada West (I mean it includes Alaska for Pete's sake) South West includes Mexico etc.

China, South America and Africa is still a difficult proposition.

Anyway. Just my thoughts. I think it would help grow this as a sport. In professionalism of judges (regardless if they are volunteers or not), not drag this process out over 4 weeks (yawn), deepen the fields and grow the competition. Make it a real **** fight ... not a cake walk with only a few people fighting.
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Old 05-30-2014, 05:14 PM   #48
Drew Cloutier
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Re: Regional Competitor - "CF is not a Sport"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clint Harris View Post
I think they should reduce the number of regionals - especially in US. This will reduce the logistical overhead of equipment, judges experience, etc but also deepen the fields.
I don't know about anyone else, but most of the Regionals I don't watch nor do I really have any idea who's there. Of the one's I do watch, it's typically only that last heat. Even then, that last heat isn't a fully competitive one.
e.g. Massive gap between top 4 and bottom 4 in that "elite" heat alone.

I did try to watch some of the "first heats" when I knew someone, the camera work isn't very inclusive so you don't get to see them anyway ... perhaps in the background. Even if they're in the lead on the outside lane. Not even HQ commentated them so there's clearly a disconnect. It's like a token thing.

Let's face it, the Regionals are currently top 6 at best and then the rest. Anyone outside the top 6 is not competitive (in some regions it's 2-4). They may be "competing" .... but not competitive in that they add to any excitement/drama in watching it.

How do you get around the "3 spots" with the reduced regional ? You increase them - potentially proportionally based off of the number of entrants into said region. With more spots, if the "stars" have one bad workout - either through judging or just bombing - then they'll be less likely to miss out but will still have to fight for a spot (and it be realistic they get one). We would also see newer guys or people who'd make it in other regions come through more often too. Kill the wildcard debate.

I think this will also solve the lack of watchability of heat's 1-3 (and even 2nd half of heat 4).

Let's say we redraw South East so it combines parts of Central East, North and South Central and Mid Atlantic - Like through Louisiana, up through AK, across Kentucky and Virginia. (People in other codes already travel these distances for their chosen sport). With bigger regions, the qual spots will increase. Those top competitors will still get in based on being 1st or 4th but the fight that occurs will be more exciting.
Not only will it strengthen the Team Events, but the individual competition will also be better. It will bring some of the weaker regions (or filled with no-names) up to speed but also pit Foucher against Em B and Talayna F to prevent a complete runaway "non-event" for Foucher's case. Put some form of prize on the line so those top 3 just don't dial it in and we end up with a legitimate fight for first and 6th or 7th where the cut line would now be. We'd literally have more athletes fighting it out and the last 2 heats would be worth watching. It'd probably develop the athletes faster too based off of the competition that is now there.
No doubt, in this new SE region, we would still see Froning, Panchik, Ohlsen, Smith qualify, but we may also see the likes of Holmberg and Hendren go (assuming they all remain in new region - but they'd make it in their new one too). Other guys like Moorad and Schrader will be still fighting it out and making it .... but we'd at least have a really deep fight on our hands and make the games that much deeper too. There wouldn't be 2nd and 3rd in weak regions battling out for last place at the games. We'd have a deeper games field too.

Redrawing some of the other Regions might look like. North East include Canada East, the rest of Central East, part of North Central. North West contains Canada West (I mean it includes Alaska for Pete's sake) South West includes Mexico etc.

China, South America and Africa is still a difficult proposition.

Anyway. Just my thoughts. I think it would help grow this as a sport. In professionalism of judges (regardless if they are volunteers or not), not drag this process out over 4 weeks (yawn), deepen the fields and grow the competition. Make it a real **** fight ... not a cake walk with only a few people fighting.
Problem with that at least in north america, is that then you'd have logistics and squabbling over will the comp be in the USA or in Canada? and blah blah
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Old 05-31-2014, 01:39 AM   #49
Clint Harris
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Re: Regional Competitor - "CF is not a Sport"

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Originally Posted by Drew Cloutier View Post
Problem with that at least in north america, is that then you'd have logistics and squabbling over will the comp be in the USA or in Canada? and blah blah
True that. But realistically tough doo doo. They're already miles away in some regions. People will travel though. It can also rotate around each year too.
If we look at baseball etc, people travel from many miles away to get there. E.g. Bunches of Canadians go to Safeco field.
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Old 06-03-2014, 01:56 PM   #50
Christopher Morris
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Re: Regional Competitor - "CF is not a Sport"

As a specatator, I appreciate having Regionals spread out over several weekends. I can watch more of the competition. If all 17 Regionals happened the same weekend, I wouldn't be able to watch as much.
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