Zone Extras

Troy Archie · 02-11-2005, 11:14 AM

I'm wondering how I should handle extras like post workout meals/shakes and such? Should I be trying to work them into my zone menu or just take them and forget about them? I'm trying to get it so that I get all my required protein from real foods and any extra that comes from shakes, is just that, extra. Maybe I'm a little brainwashed but I'm under the opinion that you want to get some proteins and carbs right after you workout and before you go to bed. Any insight would be great.

Larry Lindenman · 02-11-2005, 02:48 PM

Your going to find varing opinions about the post workout nutrition window. I really don't think anything fancy is necessary...I drink a glass of low fat chocolate milk, you got your protein and carbs. about 45 minutes later I eat a 5 block Zone meal. I then have 2 - 5 block meals and 2 - 2 block snacks. Is it better to drink Biotest Surge after working out...may be, but not that much better and chocolate milk is much more avaliable and a lot cheeper. Am I out of the Zone post workout, yah; but if any of the studies about post workout nutrition are accurate, I should be ok and not gain any fat, at the very most I'm wasting 2 cents for the glass of milk.

http://newsinfo.iu.edu/tips/page/normal/1674.html

http://www.winforum.org/Nutritionnews.html

Scott Kustes · 02-11-2005, 03:11 PM

I make a Zone compliant shake with 3 blocks of frozen berries (randomly chosen from strawberries, blueberries, blackberries, and raspberries), a cup of milk, a scoop of vanilla Biotest Low-Carb Grow (which is 20g of protein...3 blocks), 2 tsp of coconut oil (6 blocks of fat), and enough water to fill the blender to the 5 cup level. I consider that 4 of my 19 blocks for the day. No added sugar (other than perhaps a little in the the Grow), carbs are all from fruit, and it is tasty (some combos are better than others....raspberries and blackberries together make it rather bland).

Troy Archie · 02-11-2005, 07:45 PM

Interesting articles, Larry. One there I notice though is that all the tests were done on high endurance athletes, cyclists, swimmers and long distance runners. Now CrossFit is tough as hell but should we be comparing a 20-30 minute WOD to say 1-1.5 hour swim/run? Saying that probably makes me sound like a wuss and that I'm not going balls to the wall. Regardless, so long as they have lactose free chocolate milk, I'm going to give this a shot.

Along with periodic partial back off weeks, I always see you posting about your post workout chocolate milk, and you were right about the first one so maybe you're on a role.

Larry Lindenman · 02-12-2005, 07:27 AM

Give it a shot (I drink about half the recommended volume after low intensity days). Here’s a THEORY on how it works (from an unknown article):

"Cortisol literally converts muscle tissue to proteins for conversion into glucose. This is your body’s way of producing energy when all readily available energy (glucose) and stored forms (glycogen) of energy have been expended. To compensate for this depletion of energy your body will go into a process called gluconeogenesis to produce glucose from amino acids in the liver. The end result of this process? Hard earned muscle used as energy, and all potential gains becoming null and void.

To sum up the post-workout scenario: cortisol increases, and insulin decreases.

This scenario presents several needs to our starving bodies.

In order to get maximum results from our workout we must turn these glycogen and protein deficits into glycogen and protein surpluses immediately afterward.

So the two most important components of muscle recovery are replenishing the glycogen fuel burned during the workout and rebuilding the muscle proteins that are destroyed during the workout.

These processes are highly time-sensitive: the sooner they are allowed to begin, the faster they proceed and the more likely they will be completed in time for the next training session.
This is because following training, the muscle cells are highly receptive to insulin, the hormone responsible for transporting glucose and amino acids through the bloodstream and into the muscle cell.

This crucial stage of receptiveness is more technically known as facilitated diffusion.

“Facilitated Diffusion - This is diffusion that is assisted by protein transports. When a needed nutrient is low in the muscle cell environment and it cannot pass through the pores, then it must be transported). This is similar to the above process except that it needs a boat to get across the plasma membrane and into the cell environment. Following a workout, when glucose concentrations are low, and you down a high carb drink, the glucose in your blood stream has a high concentration. Therefore it diffuses to the lower concentration area inside your muscle cells. The green nutrients* are insoluble to lipids, they therefore must move across the membrane in a transported manner. The purple protein transporters as you can see take the nutrients, carry them across the membrane and then release them inside of the cell environment!”

Immediately after our training session, a natural restoration in anabolic hormones starts to occur, as our body tries to start the recovery process of protein synthesis.

The main volume of these hormones include: Insulin, Growth Hormone, Insulin-Growth Factor, DHEA, and estrogens.

This restorative process is called biochemical supercompensation.

However of all of these hormones, released insulin is the most important. Insulin rebound is responsible for the release of Growth Hormone, which is the key hormone responsible for the release of Insulin Growth Factor.( See Enter the Z Factor for more about Growth Hormone and Insulin Growth Factor)

Protein synthesis will simply NOT occur if there is an insufficient or delayed supply of energy and amino acids to offset post-workout catabolism.

The primary goal of post-workout nutrition is to rapidly induce an environment that will recoil, and help increase, these naturally occurring hormone levels to begin the crucial process of protein synthesis.

This can be best accomplished by decreasing post-workout cortisol levels rapidly and aiding our bodies in rebounding insulin levels, to further aid in the release of Growth Hormone and Insulin-Growth factor.

By consuming simple carbohydrates post-training we can induce an increased production of these anabolic hormones and thwart gluconeogenesis; thus maintaining a more positive nitrogen balance.

*Must have been a picture attached...sorry.

As reported by Eugene from Crossfit central: Imput - Black box - output. We care about the output and, quite frankly, don't care what actually happens in the black box. Try it, if it works you've got a new tool, If not your out a couple of bucks (try it for a week or two before dismissing it though).

Ron Nelson · 02-12-2005, 11:23 AM

I've tried it and can attest to success. Stength has increased; better performance the next day, especially in the pulling movements!
Great post Larry! I've heard the black box talk from Coach. Highly informative and intertaining.
We put in good nutrition, thrusters, O-lifts, Tabata, 400m runs, gymnastics, bodyweight exercises, and what comes out is a monster; a one-piece animal!

Mike Yukish · 02-12-2005, 05:54 PM

I normally avoid the nutrition portion of this forum like a prostitute (lawyer?) avoids church, but got sucked in by the 'chocolate milk' mention in the Community section. I really like the idea.

Question: what are the impacts, plus and minus, of an ice cold beer post-workout? I've been doing for years, so I ought to know. Very relaxing, to say the least. Insta-buzz in my depleted state. But I'm interested in a scientific read.

Kidding about the lawyers and ladies, please don't toss me in Pukie's bucket, Lynne.

Ron Nelson · 02-12-2005, 06:28 PM

The lawyer says FREEZE HIS ACCOUNT!!!:rofl:
Seriously, if more people start listening to Larry about the choco milk, suppliment companies are gonna send out the muscle!
I like the idea of an ice cold beer after a good round of basketball, but that's usually on the weekends.

Troy Archie · 02-12-2005, 06:51 PM

That reminds me, I used to work for this company whose UK rep was a swimmer and I think he was challenging the Bristol Channel. I guess only a few people had challenged this particular channel before so it was a big deal that someone was going for it again. Guinness sponsored the event and they had the evening news TV crew there. At the beginning of the race they said to him that they’d have an ice cold one waiting for him at the other side. When he got to the other side a few hours later there was that bottle of beer waiting for him, along with the TV crew and he slammed back the beer. Well I guess since he was so dehydrated from swimming for so long, that the beer just got him instantly drunk and he fell over and just about passed out. The alcohol also poisoned his liver and he was sick for like a month.

Mike Yukish · 02-12-2005, 08:22 PM

I thought about my post a bit more, and figured I'd add some more insight based on experience.

My climbing pard' and I would often head out to go bouldering about 20 miles away. We'd usually take a few beers along in a pack and make a day of it.

On a few occasions we got greedy and decided to have a road pop while driving there. Every time we did that, our performance was in the tank. Bad idea.

When we kept our discipline and climbed for a while before popping the top, there were no negatives that I could tell. The stuff we were doing were, in the climbing parlance, "jug hauls". So they were strenuous 20-50 second bouts, possibly up to a few minutes for some long traverses. In no way was it circuit training, though. Max effort followed by standing around.

Not sure what it means, other than that a few beers in moderation in mid-performance appeared to have no down side and many up sides. I was wondering on the benefits of the carbs post-workout, and was thinking tossing in some kind of protein snack might make a decent recovery meal.

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02-11-2005, 11:14 AM	#1
Troy Archie Member Profile: Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Edmonton Alberta Posts: 474	I'm wondering how I should handle extras like post workout meals/shakes and such? Should I be trying to work them into my zone menu or just take them and forget about them? I'm trying to get it so that I get all my required protein from real foods and any extra that comes from shakes, is just that, extra. Maybe I'm a little brainwashed but I'm under the opinion that you want to get some proteins and carbs right after you workout and before you go to bed. Any insight would be great.

02-11-2005, 02:48 PM	#2
Larry Lindenman Affiliate Profile: Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Chicago Illinois Posts: 2,769	Your going to find varing opinions about the post workout nutrition window. I really don't think anything fancy is necessary...I drink a glass of low fat chocolate milk, you got your protein and carbs. about 45 minutes later I eat a 5 block Zone meal. I then have 2 - 5 block meals and 2 - 2 block snacks. Is it better to drink Biotest Surge after working out...may be, but not that much better and chocolate milk is much more avaliable and a lot cheeper. Am I out of the Zone post workout, yah; but if any of the studies about post workout nutrition are accurate, I should be ok and not gain any fat, at the very most I'm wasting 2 cents for the glass of milk. http://newsinfo.iu.edu/tips/page/normal/1674.html http://www.winforum.org/Nutritionnews.html

02-11-2005, 03:11 PM	#3
Scott Kustes Member Profile: Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Louisville KY Posts: 1,258	I make a Zone compliant shake with 3 blocks of frozen berries (randomly chosen from strawberries, blueberries, blackberries, and raspberries), a cup of milk, a scoop of vanilla Biotest Low-Carb Grow (which is 20g of protein...3 blocks), 2 tsp of coconut oil (6 blocks of fat), and enough water to fill the blender to the 5 cup level. I consider that 4 of my 19 blocks for the day. No added sugar (other than perhaps a little in the the Grow), carbs are all from fruit, and it is tasty (some combos are better than others....raspberries and blackberries together make it rather bland).

02-11-2005, 07:45 PM	#4
Troy Archie Member Profile: Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Edmonton Alberta Posts: 474	Interesting articles, Larry. One there I notice though is that all the tests were done on high endurance athletes, cyclists, swimmers and long distance runners. Now CrossFit is tough as hell but should we be comparing a 20-30 minute WOD to say 1-1.5 hour swim/run? Saying that probably makes me sound like a wuss and that I'm not going balls to the wall. Regardless, so long as they have lactose free chocolate milk, I'm going to give this a shot. Along with periodic partial back off weeks, I always see you posting about your post workout chocolate milk, and you were right about the first one so maybe you're on a role.

02-12-2005, 07:27 AM	#5
Larry Lindenman Affiliate Profile: Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Chicago Illinois Posts: 2,769	Give it a shot (I drink about half the recommended volume after low intensity days). Here’s a THEORY on how it works (from an unknown article): "Cortisol literally converts muscle tissue to proteins for conversion into glucose. This is your body’s way of producing energy when all readily available energy (glucose) and stored forms (glycogen) of energy have been expended. To compensate for this depletion of energy your body will go into a process called gluconeogenesis to produce glucose from amino acids in the liver. The end result of this process? Hard earned muscle used as energy, and all potential gains becoming null and void. To sum up the post-workout scenario: cortisol increases, and insulin decreases. This scenario presents several needs to our starving bodies. In order to get maximum results from our workout we must turn these glycogen and protein deficits into glycogen and protein surpluses immediately afterward. So the two most important components of muscle recovery are replenishing the glycogen fuel burned during the workout and rebuilding the muscle proteins that are destroyed during the workout. These processes are highly time-sensitive: the sooner they are allowed to begin, the faster they proceed and the more likely they will be completed in time for the next training session. This is because following training, the muscle cells are highly receptive to insulin, the hormone responsible for transporting glucose and amino acids through the bloodstream and into the muscle cell. This crucial stage of receptiveness is more technically known as facilitated diffusion. “Facilitated Diffusion - This is diffusion that is assisted by protein transports. When a needed nutrient is low in the muscle cell environment and it cannot pass through the pores, then it must be transported). This is similar to the above process except that it needs a boat to get across the plasma membrane and into the cell environment. Following a workout, when glucose concentrations are low, and you down a high carb drink, the glucose in your blood stream has a high concentration. Therefore it diffuses to the lower concentration area inside your muscle cells. The green nutrients* are insoluble to lipids, they therefore must move across the membrane in a transported manner. The purple protein transporters as you can see take the nutrients, carry them across the membrane and then release them inside of the cell environment!” Immediately after our training session, a natural restoration in anabolic hormones starts to occur, as our body tries to start the recovery process of protein synthesis. The main volume of these hormones include: Insulin, Growth Hormone, Insulin-Growth Factor, DHEA, and estrogens. This restorative process is called biochemical supercompensation. However of all of these hormones, released insulin is the most important. Insulin rebound is responsible for the release of Growth Hormone, which is the key hormone responsible for the release of Insulin Growth Factor.( See Enter the Z Factor for more about Growth Hormone and Insulin Growth Factor) Protein synthesis will simply NOT occur if there is an insufficient or delayed supply of energy and amino acids to offset post-workout catabolism. The primary goal of post-workout nutrition is to rapidly induce an environment that will recoil, and help increase, these naturally occurring hormone levels to begin the crucial process of protein synthesis. This can be best accomplished by decreasing post-workout cortisol levels rapidly and aiding our bodies in rebounding insulin levels, to further aid in the release of Growth Hormone and Insulin-Growth factor. By consuming simple carbohydrates post-training we can induce an increased production of these anabolic hormones and thwart gluconeogenesis; thus maintaining a more positive nitrogen balance. *Must have been a picture attached...sorry. As reported by Eugene from Crossfit central: Imput - Black box - output. We care about the output and, quite frankly, don't care what actually happens in the black box. Try it, if it works you've got a new tool, If not your out a couple of bucks (try it for a week or two before dismissing it though).

02-12-2005, 11:23 AM	#6
Ron Nelson Banned Profile: Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Anaheim CA Posts: 1,199	I've tried it and can attest to success. Stength has increased; better performance the next day, especially in the pulling movements! Great post Larry! I've heard the black box talk from Coach. Highly informative and intertaining. We put in good nutrition, thrusters, O-lifts, Tabata, 400m runs, gymnastics, bodyweight exercises, and what comes out is a monster; a one-piece animal!

02-12-2005, 05:54 PM	#7
Mike Yukish Member Profile: Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: State College PA Posts: 448	I normally avoid the nutrition portion of this forum like a prostitute (lawyer?) avoids church, but got sucked in by the 'chocolate milk' mention in the Community section. I really like the idea. Question: what are the impacts, plus and minus, of an ice cold beer post-workout? I've been doing for years, so I ought to know. Very relaxing, to say the least. Insta-buzz in my depleted state. But I'm interested in a scientific read. Kidding about the lawyers and ladies, please don't toss me in Pukie's bucket, Lynne.

02-12-2005, 06:28 PM	#8
Ron Nelson Banned Profile: Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Anaheim CA Posts: 1,199	The lawyer says FREEZE HIS ACCOUNT!!!:rofl: Seriously, if more people start listening to Larry about the choco milk, suppliment companies are gonna send out the muscle! I like the idea of an ice cold beer after a good round of basketball, but that's usually on the weekends.

02-12-2005, 06:51 PM	#9
Troy Archie Member Profile: Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Edmonton Alberta Posts: 474	That reminds me, I used to work for this company whose UK rep was a swimmer and I think he was challenging the Bristol Channel. I guess only a few people had challenged this particular channel before so it was a big deal that someone was going for it again. Guinness sponsored the event and they had the evening news TV crew there. At the beginning of the race they said to him that they’d have an ice cold one waiting for him at the other side. When he got to the other side a few hours later there was that bottle of beer waiting for him, along with the TV crew and he slammed back the beer. Well I guess since he was so dehydrated from swimming for so long, that the beer just got him instantly drunk and he fell over and just about passed out. The alcohol also poisoned his liver and he was sick for like a month.

02-12-2005, 08:22 PM	#10
Mike Yukish Member Profile: Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: State College PA Posts: 448	I thought about my post a bit more, and figured I'd add some more insight based on experience. My climbing pard' and I would often head out to go bouldering about 20 miles away. We'd usually take a few beers along in a pack and make a day of it. On a few occasions we got greedy and decided to have a road pop while driving there. Every time we did that, our performance was in the tank. Bad idea. When we kept our discipline and climbed for a while before popping the top, there were no negatives that I could tell. The stuff we were doing were, in the climbing parlance, "jug hauls". So they were strenuous 20-50 second bouts, possibly up to a few minutes for some long traverses. In no way was it circuit training, though. Max effort followed by standing around. Not sure what it means, other than that a few beers in moderation in mid-performance appeared to have no down side and many up sides. I was wondering on the benefits of the carbs post-workout, and was thinking tossing in some kind of protein snack might make a decent recovery meal.