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Old 09-03-2010, 06:03 AM   #1
John Harris
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Deadlift for Sprinting Article - and a question

WFS LINK http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode3/269/

The above link tells a story of and outlines a program used to train a high school sprinter using heavy deadlifts and plyometrics with full recovery in between.

The reason for my post is that I'm confused by the program description.


Quote:
Here is the basic plan, based on strength training sessions on 3 consecutive days: . . .

Deadlift every session, 2-3 sets of 2-3 reps @ 85-95% 1RM, TIMED
Deadlifts on consecutive days at 85-95% max? Is that a typo?
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Old 09-03-2010, 06:32 AM   #2
Larry Hotchkiss
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Re: Deadlift for Sprinting Article - and a question

Probably not a typo BUT training like that would likely only be applicable to the novice.
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Old 09-03-2010, 06:48 AM   #3
Michael Wiley
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Re: Deadlift for Sprinting Article - and a question

I read that article a long time ago and at the time I didn't agree with it in principle. I think you could get Allison Felix to do about any weight workout and it would be sufficient for her, she is just a great natural talent and also isn't very muscularly developed.

I don't know of hardly any other sprinters using deadlifts as their primary compound movement for legs.
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Old 09-03-2010, 07:08 AM   #4
Shane Skowron
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Re: Deadlift for Sprinting Article - and a question

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Originally Posted by Michael Wiley View Post
I read that article a long time ago and at the time I didn't agree with it in principle. I think you could get Allison Felix to do about any weight workout and it would be sufficient for her, she is just a great natural talent and also isn't very muscularly developed.
The article says that all her teammates set PR's.
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Old 09-03-2010, 07:20 AM   #5
Carl Amolat
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Re: Deadlift for Sprinting Article - and a question

I'd think that deadlifts would be complimentary exercises for squats and other leg lifts and push presses that would be required of sprinters. But either way it's a useful article to look through.
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Old 09-03-2010, 11:57 AM   #6
Michael Wiley
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Re: Deadlift for Sprinting Article - and a question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shane Skowron View Post
The article says that all her teammates set PR's.
In detail:

The article uses Allison Felix as his prime example touting it must be the end all be all b/c she made these accomplishments while on this program. He states she and others made gains and PR's while doing it. What he does not state is how they did as compared to the old program they were on before. I doubt there was one. Most any HS athlete (or any person) will benefit and see gains from almost any program if they have never had a serious weight training regime before.

Secondly he makes the point that the deadlift is the biggest bang for you buck exercise based on power output compared to bodyweight. I don't like the deadlift as a sprint specific exercise because it is too heavily dependant on spinal erectors and upper back muscles compared to the other major leg exercises and these are not particularly important to sprinting. It also only taxes the glutes and quads through the upper portion of their range of motion while sprinting requires a complete range of motion.

Lastly the deadlift does not produce a lot of power even if done properly by and advanced lifter compared to the O-lifts. Take the following example of an elite athlete making a deadlift and an olympic lift:

"Compare the power produced in two world record lifts by former world champions, powerlifter Doyle Kenady and weightlifter Alex Pisarenko. Kenady deadlifted 405 kg. at a bodyweight of 140 kg. It took two seconds for him to lift the weight .40 m off the floor and stand erect. Pisarenko cleaned 265 kg. at a bodyweight of 120 kg. It took him .90 seconds to clean the weight and
stand up. The bar traveled .9 m from the floor. Pisarenko's 265-kg clean generated 21.64 W per kilogram of body mass, and Kenady's 405-kg deadlift produced 5.57 W per kilogram of body pass. The world-record clean produced nearly four times the power of the world-record deadlift. The so-called power lifts are actually strength lifts"

So in a nutshell, I think this guy could have given Allison Felix (and teammates) most anything and they would have seen results. It would be hard to screw up Allison Felix's training at that young an age. I look at the dumb stuff I did thinking I was doing well in HS and I still turned out fine in in season comps.
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Old 09-05-2010, 09:04 AM   #7
David Meverden
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Re: Deadlift for Sprinting Article - and a question

Good points, Michael. So, do you not believe the deadlift should be used at all, or just secondary to the squat for overall strength? I understand that o-lifts will be superior for building power in an athlete, but they also need to have some brute strength that can be utilized by the more efficient neural recruitment created by explosive lifts. Wouldn't deadlifts be superior to olympic lifts for building this strength in athletes that aren't already quite strong? And wouldn't the squat not build the strength used for a power clean as well as a deadlift?
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Old 09-05-2010, 03:46 PM   #8
Donald Lee
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Re: Deadlift for Sprinting Article - and a question

This article and more was discussed in this thread:

http://performancemenu.com/forum/showthread.php?t=106 (WFS)

Barry Ross contributed to the thread. He is ostracized by the sprinting community, so take that for whatever it's worth. He does make some good points, but I think he wrongly discounts the need for speed endurance.
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Old 09-05-2010, 04:15 PM   #9
Michael Wiley
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Re: Deadlift for Sprinting Article - and a question

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Meverden View Post
Good points, Michael. So, do you not believe the deadlift should be used at all, or just secondary to the squat for overall strength? I understand that o-lifts will be superior for building power in an athlete, but they also need to have some brute strength that can be utilized by the more efficient neural recruitment created by explosive lifts. Wouldn't deadlifts be superior to olympic lifts for building this strength in athletes that aren't already quite strong? And wouldn't the squat not build the strength used for a power clean as well as a deadlift?
We did lots of romanian deadlifts as a finisher/accessory lift in college. I like those and straight legs a lot for sprint related work, I just think that you can pull a lot of weight with relatively weak legs and that should not be your primary lift.

We had a core power/core strength day in school. Basically for core p cleans/ snatch pulls on mon and snatches/ clean pulls on Thurs. We would alternate split jerk and power presses as well. The core strength was bench press/ squat on tues and incline press/front squat on Fri.

We did other things seated military dumbbell presses, step ups, bicep curls, pull ups and similar things to get a complete body workout, but core power/core strength lifts were the main one.

Edit: Missed your squat point. I totally agree on the squat, and for reasons in my previous post do think it is superior to deadlift.
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Old 09-05-2010, 06:49 PM   #10
Chris Mason
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Re: Deadlift for Sprinting Article - and a question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Wiley View Post
In detail:

The article uses Allison Felix as his prime example touting it must be the end all be all b/c she made these accomplishments while on this program. He states she and others made gains and PR's while doing it. What he does not state is how they did as compared to the old program they were on before. I doubt there was one. Most any HS athlete (or any person) will benefit and see gains from almost any program if they have never had a serious weight training regime before.

Secondly he makes the point that the deadlift is the biggest bang for you buck exercise based on power output compared to bodyweight. I don't like the deadlift as a sprint specific exercise because it is too heavily dependant on spinal erectors and upper back muscles compared to the other major leg exercises and these are not particularly important to sprinting. It also only taxes the glutes and quads through the upper portion of their range of motion while sprinting requires a complete range of motion.

Lastly the deadlift does not produce a lot of power even if done properly by and advanced lifter compared to the O-lifts. Take the following example of an elite athlete making a deadlift and an olympic lift:

"Compare the power produced in two world record lifts by former world champions, powerlifter Doyle Kenady and weightlifter Alex Pisarenko. Kenady deadlifted 405 kg. at a bodyweight of 140 kg. It took two seconds for him to lift the weight .40 m off the floor and stand erect. Pisarenko cleaned 265 kg. at a bodyweight of 120 kg. It took him .90 seconds to clean the weight and
stand up. The bar traveled .9 m from the floor. Pisarenko's 265-kg clean generated 21.64 W per kilogram of body mass, and Kenady's 405-kg deadlift produced 5.57 W per kilogram of body pass. The world-record clean produced nearly four times the power of the world-record deadlift. The so-called power lifts are actually strength lifts"

So in a nutshell, I think this guy could have given Allison Felix (and teammates) most anything and they would have seen results. It would be hard to screw up Allison Felix's training at that young an age. I look at the dumb stuff I did thinking I was doing well in HS and I still turned out fine in in season comps.
Michael,

I don't think you have a sound understanding of strength and power. Pisarenko generated more power because he could move the load really fast. That doesn't mean that what he did will translate in any way, shape, or form better to something like running.

Power, with respect to resistance training, is more of a function of absolute strength than anything else. You simply cannot accelerate near max, or max loads quickly. Pisarenko was BRUTALLY strong when he accomplished the feat you refer to.

In other words, your statement about the "so-called powerlifts" doesn't really make a lot of sense. Olympic lifts, at their best, are a combination of great strength in the involved musculature AND great skill. Powerlifts tend require less skill and plenty of brute strength. Both types of lifting can increase strength in the involved musculature and thus the potential for greater power in other movements.
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