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Exercises Movements, technique & proper execution

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Old 04-01-2005, 08:18 PM   #1
Michael Johnson
 
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I just read the latest issue of the Crossfit Journal. Coach Glassman's article on the Kipping Pull-up raised a question. Coach Glassman stated the kipping pull-up is faster than the strict pull-up. I'm wondering how that is when the kipping pull-up requires an added hip movement and follows a wider arc than a strict pull-up which is essentially a near straight pull without any extra movement? A straight line is still the quickest route between two points. I perform my pull-ups in a variety of ways and have found that I can do the same number of pull-ups faster during bodyweight strict pull-ups than the same number kipping. Or is he refering to the speed of the actual pulling part of the kipping pull-up and not the whole movement?
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Old 04-01-2005, 11:38 PM   #2
Joshua Newman
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While I don't want to presume to speak for Coach, I understood that to mean a speed increase at the set, rather than rep, level.

Because it's easier to cycle from one kipped pullup to the next, and because most people can bang out kipped sets with fewer breaks or shorter resting hangs, kipped sets come out much faster overall, even if the concentric contraction phase of a single kipped pullup is nominally longer.
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Old 04-01-2005, 11:50 PM   #3
Alexander Karatis
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Michael, you are thinking in very linear terms that is why you assume that "a straight line is still the quickest route between two points". The whole point here is to generate explosive power and thus properl your body over the bar in the shortest time possible. Using your whole body to generate that momentum is a much more effective way than "numbing" you lower body while just trying to pull as hard as possible with your back and arms.

So in essence, you are faster because:

1. You have more muscle groups sharing the workload
2. You use them in a way that give your body the momentum necssary to overcome inertia (your body's natural tendency to remain at rest or move in a "straight line").

Kips also fire you up big-time :biggrin:
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Old 04-02-2005, 07:15 AM   #4
Christopher Sommer
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There is no elastic or plyometric element in a correctly executed strict pullup. This is not, however, the case with kipping pullups; hence the far greater speed that can be generated.

Perhaps the following prior post of mine will help to explain some of the intricacies of the kipping pullup.


Yours in Fitness,
Coach Sommer

OlympicBodies@msn.com
http://www.dragondoor.com/cgi-bin/ar...&articleid=229
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Kipping pull-ups or, as I call them, Chinese pull-ups, are useful tool for easily increasing total amount of repetitions as well as more importantly developing elasticity in the shoulder girdle. They are also beneficial is developing a sense of rhythm and coordination.

Someone who already understands the mechanics of the movement can start from a hang, however I have found that it is usually easiest for beginners to begin from the top of the pull-up. To get the most benefit from a kipping motion on pull-ups I would recommend the following:

1) Begin from a static hold at the top of the pull-up.

2) Drop as quickly as possible to the bottom of the pull-up. While the body is dropping press the shoulders (feel the arm pits STRETCH) forward and the hips backward. This will result in the body somewhat resembling a stretched out letter C with the hands on the bar, the shoulders slightly in front of the hands and the hips slightly behind the hands.

3) Bounce strongly out of the bottom position. Use the momentum from the bounce to propel yourself back up to the bar, strongly reversing your body position on the way up. Do not attempt to stop precisely at the top of the bar, but allow the body to go as high as it wishes. Your may find that your hands are also hopping slightly off the bar at the top if your kip has been powerful. Finish with hands on the bar, shoulders slightly behind the hands and the hips slightly in front of the hands.

4) Do not pause at the top, but immediately use your speed and momentum to bounce down into another repetition.

5) This movement is self regulating. If you are not using the swing of the hips and shoulders in coordination the movement will become awkward and out of control and you will be unable to proceed to the next repetition.

6) Pay close attention to your hands. Several high rep sets of these can result in some spectacular blisters if you are not used to this kind of work."

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Old 04-02-2005, 01:27 PM   #5
James Oconnor
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Does Coach have a book out? It said at the end of the article on dragondoor that he will have one out soon.
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Old 04-02-2005, 05:20 PM   #6
Bill Byrnell
 
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I also just read this months Crossfit journal about kipping pullups.I have always done strict pullups, arms fully extended at the bottom, wide grip, palms facing away from me. I recently did the WOD of 100 L- pullups in 8:10 this way.
Today I did the fri WOD doing pullups with the kipping action. I can't believe how much faster I was able to do them!
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Old 04-03-2005, 05:09 PM   #7
Coach
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Michael, you are right, the kipping pull-up requires an added hip movement and follows a longer line of action.

Your statement that “a straight line is still the quickest route between two points” has problems. The straight line is the “shortest distance” between two points not necessarily the “quickest route”.

The kipping pull-up takes the long way home and gets there first. That’s how much more powerful it is.

As for your finding that you “can do the same number of pull-ups faster during bodyweight strict pull-ups than the same number kipping”, I can offer three likely explanations 1) you don’t know how to kip 2) your strict pull-ups are cheaters or 3) you’re remembering a different test.

We did our own little test this morning. Here’s the video: http://www.crossfit.com/cf-video/strict-kip.wmv

We had Greg Amundson bang out 15 strict pull-ups. He moved a bit faster than most strict pull-ups but not so fast as to bounce off the bottom. It took 26.20 seconds. That’s .57 pull-ups per second. (Jeff Martone’s tactical pull-ups, a good clean strict pull-up, take about two seconds per rep vs. Greg's faster 1.75 seconds.)

Next we had Greg Amundson perform 15 kipping pull-ups. It took 17.08 seconds. That’s .88 pull-ups per second. That’s 54% more powerful!

The 54% difference occurs with 15 pull-ups. The number will grow from there, you can be sure, at 20, 25, 30, 35, and 40 pull-ups the power output kipping will begin to dwarf the strict. This difference asserts itself very, very early in the glycolytic pathway. The advantage of the kip increases through all three metabolic pathways. Imagine the difference in workouts of 75 to 100 pull-ups.

The kipping pull-up has the most speed, velocity towards the bar, and acceleration regardless of direction. It is hands down the king of the pull-ups.
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Old 04-03-2005, 07:07 PM   #8
Zach Even - Esh
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I say do them both! Variety is a large factor in improving your performance and appearance! I see nothing wrong with added hip movement to crank out pull ups - as far as speed goes, that would also rely on the absolute strength of the individual pulling - I would never absolutely say one should do the pull up in one manner over another unless technique is poor. The kip works well for the individual who knows how to use it well - some people may see the kip as cheating i see it as an exercise that needs to be mastered through regular practice.

You can also do strict pull ups and then crank out the extras using a kip - there are so many variations here and it all depends on your goals and preferred style.

I'll never forget, I had one athlete who I trained, who always had a slight kip - I let him go for it b/c it worked well for him and he was improving regularly -

let us not mistake a kip for a poorly performed / cheating pull up.

In the end, I am not over analizing, simply using what feels best & works best for me!

In the end, i love all pull ups & their many variaitons.
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Old 04-03-2005, 11:48 PM   #9
David Werner
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Zach

As far as Crossfit goes you are missing the point. What we care about above all other things is Power - that is; work divided by time or, equivalently, (Force x distance)/time.

The reason we care about Power more than strength or endurance or even speed, is that power output is what taxes the whole human system - and ellicits a neuroendocrine response.

The whole point of most of our named workouts (and most of the workouts that aren't named), is to measure/challenge power output.

When we increase an individuals ability to output power we observe a corollary increase in absolute strength, speed, endurance and stamina. If workouts are designed to increase absolute strength, strength is the only area of improvement.

Strength is good, but we are greedy and want impovement in all areas of fitness! So, Kipping is the way to go most of the time. It is not about what feels/works the best to you, it's about power output.

Regards
Dave Werner
Crossfit North
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Old 04-04-2005, 05:01 AM   #10
Larry Lindenman
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I almost skipped over this post, because it's all been covered before over and over and over.....BUT, I learned my lesson, great information in these posts, Dave, Coach, Coach Sommer, Josh and Alex, put on a Masters course in kipping pull-ups.
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