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Old 04-22-2009, 09:33 AM   #21
Sean Dunston
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Re: CrossFit Games Qualifier Observations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lurene Grenier View Post
When did the internet get a pass from the normal rules of rudeness?

It is not okay to (in couched language or otherwise) insult the honor of another human being without due cause. You should be ashamed of talking about the "appearance of impropriety". If you know something, then share it with those responsible for the games in private. If you know nothing, don't speak.

Either way, do it discreetly.

I vote for pukey on this thread.
Lurene- don't take this is an attack on you, I just want to comment on what you've written.

The "appearance of impropriety" is pretty commonly used - especially with regard to ethics -- especially legal and judicial ethics.

It actually has no bearing whatsoever on the actual propriety or impropriety of the action taken. It means that if something appears to be improper, it should be avoided, lest a question regarding the ethics of the person or entity taking the action be raised.

Again - it is not an accusation of wrongdoing, it is a warning to AVOID any possible attempt to claim wrongdoing by an outsider who is looking in on something.

I think the point being made here is:

Outsiders who are looking in at the qualifiers might logically come to the conclusion that, "when the event's makeup has been kept secret from all other competitors, and there is one person (or group) who is competing in the event, and that person (or group) ultimately turns out to be the winner of the event, that person (or group) might not be the best situated to organize and structure the event."

I have my own thoughts/opinions on the subject, but I will keep them to myself.

[PS: Speal is a beast - 'nuf said.]
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Last edited by Sean Dunston : 04-22-2009 at 09:36 AM.
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Old 04-22-2009, 09:37 AM   #22
Brenan Tarrier
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Re: CrossFit Games Qualifier Observations

A standing Conflicts Committee is a common feature in many organizations.

I don't think it's an insult to someone to require them to get a second or third bid before they use a friend or relative as a vendor. You avoid the appearance of impropriety and get high quality merchandise at good prices.

Likewise, I don't think it should be insulting to Participant X for the organizers to certify that while Participant X helped set up the event, confidentiality rules were observed and X enjoyed no competitive advantage. Just like Katrina did above.

What if the potential conflict took a different form? Should a training partner or relative be judging your reps? I think the OP was polite about raising this as a concern.
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Old 04-22-2009, 09:41 AM   #23
Lurene Grenier
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Re: CrossFit Games Qualifier Observations

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Originally Posted by Sean Dunston View Post
Lurene- don't take this is an attack on you, I just want to comment on what you've written.

The "appearance of impropriety" is pretty commonly used - especially with regard to ethics -- especially legal and judicial ethics.

...
Not taken as an attack at all. I understand how the term was used, I was just noting that the original poster wasn't worried about that appearance. He was worried about cheating.

It's just very sad that this is a concern to people, and I think very impolite to those in question.
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Old 04-22-2009, 09:44 AM   #24
Lurene Grenier
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Re: CrossFit Games Qualifier Observations

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Originally Posted by Brenan Tarrier View Post
Likewise, I don't think it should be insulting to Participant X for the organizers to certify that while Participant X helped set up the event, confidentiality rules were observed and X enjoyed no competitive advantage. Just like Katrina did above.
If the rules had stated this from the get go, then it would not be insulting. It becomes insulting when it's brought up afterwards. Also, we're not the organizers.
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Old 04-22-2009, 09:52 AM   #25
Mark Patrick
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Re: CrossFit Games Qualifier Observations

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Originally Posted by Matt Callahan View Post

1. Judges Placement: I realize this is outside the realm of standards for the athletes themselves, but this a major safety concern. Judges were standing or squatting within inches of weighted barbells throughout the events. It is a miracle that no judge was injured from a dropped or bounced barbell. Additionally, athletes were often running overly close to people with weighted barbells over their head. Not properly instructing judges on positioning themselves is bordering on negligence considering the events that were taking place.
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So you've got athletes who complete the overhead drive with arms and legs extended after squatting. This brings us to the problem of what I like to call "standing butt wink" after watching judges this weekend coach their athletes on an unnatural and unsafe movement. In order to meet the strictest standards at this weekend's event the athletes had to drive their pelvis forward while standing with weight overhead past the stable legs and arms extended, balanced and motionless position. If the athlete didn't accentuate the final unsafe spinal curve disruption, he often was faulted a rep, or coached to accentuate the next rep further. Anyone who teaches people how to work with a barbell should be appalled at the terrible influence on the athletes this weekend.
I'm surprised that people haven't discussed these farther.
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Old 04-22-2009, 10:59 AM   #26
Joe Cavazos
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Re: CrossFit Games Qualifier Observations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lurene Grenier View Post
It is not okay to (in couched language or otherwise) insult the honor of another human being without due cause. You should be ashamed of talking about the "appearance of impropriety".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lurene Grenier View Post
If the rules had stated this from the get go, then it would not be insulting. It becomes insulting when it's brought up afterwards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lurene Grenier View Post
It's just very sad that this is a concern to people, and I think very impolite to those in question.
Eventually, in this thread, you're going to realize that Speal The Person isn't the issue here. You're going to realize that the issue here regards the Games and its competitors. You're going to realize that the appearance of impropriety is a very real concern (regardless of who is the focus), especially to those competitors who have poured blood, sweat, and money into these events.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Carr View Post
I also love how just cause someone is superior in some sport or task that the people that cant meet that kind of performance assume the person is cheating as to make them feel better for being inferior to that individual.
A capital observation, Dr. Freud. Bulletproof logic.

Quote:
My guess is you could have given everyone else the wod in advance and not Speal and the same result would have more than likely occurred.
Oh, neat. While you're here, can you also predict the winners of the CrossFit Games so we can hand out the medals early and save everyone the airfare to Aromas?

Speal's awesome. Let him prove it under the same conditions as everyone else.

Quote:
He has already proved he is the best of the best....so to ASSUME he knew in advance because he won is just silly....especially without ANY evidence.
We're not saying he had to have known in advance because he won. We're saying the fact that he competed in an event he helped set up, possibly giving him a significant advantage the other competitors didn't have, doesn't look very good. The fact that he blew everyone else out of the water, while maybe not unexpected, doesn't help his case, I'm afraid.
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Old 04-22-2009, 11:23 AM   #27
Tom Seryak
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Re: CrossFit Games Qualifier Observations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Dunston View Post
Lurene- don't take this is an attack on you, I just want to comment on what you've written.

The "appearance of impropriety" is pretty commonly used - especially with regard to ethics -- especially legal and judicial ethics.

It actually has no bearing whatsoever on the actual propriety or impropriety of the action taken. It means that if something appears to be improper, it should be avoided, lest a question regarding the ethics of the person or entity taking the action be raised.

Again - it is not an accusation of wrongdoing, it is a warning to AVOID any possible attempt to claim wrongdoing by an outsider who is looking in on something.

I think the point being made here is:

Outsiders who are looking in at the qualifiers might logically come to the conclusion that, "when the event's makeup has been kept secret from all other competitors, and there is one person (or group) who is competing in the event, and that person (or group) ultimately turns out to be the winner of the event, that person (or group) might not be the best situated to organize and structure the event."

I have my own thoughts/opinions on the subject, but I will keep them to myself.

[PS: Speal is a beast - 'nuf said.]
Well put!
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Old 04-22-2009, 11:27 AM   #28
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: CrossFit Games Qualifier Observations

There seems to be an implicit assumption here: the organizers decided on the events weeks or months before giving that information to the participants. Therefore members of the organizing team potentially had early access to the information.

But I don't see the basis for that assumption.

Here's an equally plausible alternative scenario: the organizers put together a list of dozens or hundreds of potential workouts weeks or months in advance. When it came time to announce the events, they picked from this list at random, and made the announcement.

Even if the master list was pre-screened to make sure all the workouts on it were feasible, I don't see how access to it would provide a training advantage. (Or more of one than, say, reading the main page archives, or the host affiliate's blog)

Now, it's true that a clear explanation of the workout selection process could have deflected these questions altogether. But saying "they should have explained the process better" is far different from claiming a conflict of interest so blatant that it threatens the integrity of the games.

Katherine
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Old 04-22-2009, 11:28 AM   #29
Tom Woodward
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Re: CrossFit Games Qualifier Observations

Joe - I like the logical tact you're taking with this. The fact is that CrossFit competitions have grown organically, with athletes/affiliate owners stepping into the role of judges and organizers of events, which creates a slight conflict. Despite this, it would be unfair to exclude all owners/trainers from an affiliate hosting a qualifier from competing in that qualifier. It's an honor for them to be asked to host and organize a qualifier and they shouldn't have to choose between that and trying to compete in the Games. it goes without saying that organizers who are also competing should not design the workouts or have any access whatsoever to advanced knowledge of the workouts.

I'm wondering what your solution is to this. Are you saying if someone wants to compete, they should have zero association with the organization of the qualifier, and that this should be a policy to avoid the appearance of impropriety?
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Old 04-22-2009, 11:37 AM   #30
Blair Robert Lowe
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Re: CrossFit Games Qualifier Observations

With this in mind, I want to note that I signed up to be a judge for the Norcal Qualifier. Hopefully they won't have me judging DU. I will seek to be the ultimate gym nazi especially concerning any gymnastics. I will make Steve Low smile. I am not CF anything of current. There may also be the dynamic of just not having enough bodies to act as volunteers and judges.

Real bathrooms and showers sound awesome. Not gonna happen in Aromas but it's a great idea. It'd be nice if they had like better portable toilets that were nicer in some sort of stage trucks/vans.
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