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Old 04-22-2009, 04:35 AM   #11
Matt Callahan
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Re: CrossFit Games Qualifier Observations

I appreciate the comments on both sides of this issue. I feel that this community has enjoyed the benefits of high transparency in the system and I think that is part of what has made CrossFit great. To me the message board is a place to discuss openly among the community issues that relate to us. I understand the gut reaction that this isn't the place for me to bring these issues up, but on the other hand I realize that I can be wrong in my opinion on the concerns I raised.

By discussing here I have the opportunity to hear what others think with the knowledge that my name is attached to the comments and that given different responses I can learn through this process.

That applies to all the issues I raised, not just this one that got the ball rolling.
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Old 04-22-2009, 05:50 AM   #12
Jeremy Mathers
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Re: CrossFit Games Qualifier Observations

the affiliates running (and ultimately determining) the events may have an advantage because they know what the events will be, however they also have to plan, organize, run and troubleshoot the event while they are competing.

I'd rather not know the events and be able to relax/recover before/between/after the events, than to know the events, but have to set them up, run them, and then generate results, settle disputes, etc. etc. all while trying to qualify. Spending a day before a physical competition moving 1000's of pounds of weights is not ideal

I agree it's not perfect, but it's also the first time anyone involved has done something like this, so there will be hiccups along the way, and I'm sure it'll be adjusted next year.

Also what are the other options? Have the coordinators pick the events but then not compete? Automatically give the coordinators an entry to the games? Force the coordinators to travel to another area to compete in a different qualifier?

And above all, if you don't like the way it's set up, simply don't compete. You aren't being forced into the competition, so if you want to compete, you're going to have to follow the rules that are set up, regardless of how fair they seem.
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Old 04-22-2009, 06:42 AM   #13
Katrina A. Burton
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Re: CrossFit Games Qualifier Observations

This is the exact reason why some of the top CrossFitters aren't even trying to qualify for the Games. Because people will accuse them of "cheating" because they created and knew the workouts beforehand.

I can tell you Speal and Lisa were not responsible for creating the workouts and they didnt find out the WODs until the same time as any of the other competitors. How can you say Speal had the advantage when every workout had a HEAVY lift in it. Even if Speal knew the workouts beforehand, can you honestly say that a bodyweight snatch, 2x bodyweight deadlift, and a 1.25x bodyweight clean allows this guy to win you're crazy! He's an amazing athlete and if he didn't qualify then there's a problem.
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Old 04-22-2009, 06:52 AM   #14
Renee Lee
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Re: CrossFit Games Qualifier Observations

i remember a recent video in the journal (i think it was for jenni of BGI CF...not sure) saying that she's been very good about walking out of the room whenever the other guys at her box are talking about the qualifiers and the workouts for the dirty south.

i think questioning the integrity of crossfitters, especially affiliate owners that HQ entrusted with the responsibility of organizing the regional qualifier is a mistake...and quite frankly a waste of time.
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Old 04-22-2009, 07:54 AM   #15
Joe Cavazos
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Re: CrossFit Games Qualifier Observations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Mathers View Post
the affiliates running (and ultimately determining) the events may have an advantage because they know what the events will be, however they also have to plan, organize, run and troubleshoot the event while they are competing.

I'd rather not know the events and be able to relax/recover before/between/after the events, than to know the events, but have to set them up, run them, and then generate results, settle disputes, etc. etc. all while trying to qualify. Spending a day before a physical competition moving 1000's of pounds of weights is not ideal
This is a silly justification. If we have two football teams playing each other, should we allow one team to always know ahead of time what play the other team will run so long as the first team's staff is mildly inconvenienced during the game?

Quote:
Also what are the other options? Have the coordinators pick the events but then not compete? Automatically give the coordinators an entry to the games? Force the coordinators to travel to another area to compete in a different qualifier?
How about HQ or some central agency decides what the qualifying events are and lets everyone know at the same time? I thought I covered this.

Quote:
And above all, if you don't like the way it's set up, simply don't compete. You aren't being forced into the competition, so if you want to compete, you're going to have to follow the rules that are set up, regardless of how fair they seem.
Of course, the "LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT!!1" argument. How about things just be done right and fairly for the people involved? Why don't you want that? Or maybe you would if you missed qualifying by 3 seconds because the guy ahead of you knew what the workout was going to be and spent his time training specifically for the event -- something you couldn't do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katrina A. Burton View Post
This is the exact reason why some of the top CrossFitters aren't even trying to qualify for the Games. Because people will accuse them of "cheating" because they created and knew the workouts beforehand.
Why is "cheating" in quotation marks? Is it not cheating to know the workouts beforehand? If I asked Jeff Tucker what the events would be at the Southwest Regionals (if I were competing) 2 or so months before they were announced to everyone, would he tell me? Why wouldn't he?

Quote:
I can tell you Speal and Lisa were not responsible for creating the workouts and they didnt find out the WODs until the same time as any of the other competitors.
That's good, then. It's still extremely bad practice to let the people organizing and running the events also compete in those events when prior knowledge of the natures of the events would be a significant advantage. And there are still others implicated in this.

Quote:
How can you say Speal had the advantage when every workout had a HEAVY lift in it. Even if Speal knew the workouts beforehand, can you honestly say that a bodyweight snatch, 2x bodyweight deadlift, and a 1.25x bodyweight clean allows this guy to win you're crazy! He's an amazing athlete and if he didn't qualify then there's a problem.
*sigh*

Yes, Speal is a hoss. How many times to we have to repeat this? Can't we just assume it's a first premise and construct arguments from there?

Speal (or anyone) being a hoss does not mean he should be under a different set of rules than the other competitors.

(And I wonder what universe y'all live in where the better someone does, the less likely he is to have cheated. Like saying a game show contestant couldn't have been fed the answers because he answered all of the questions correctly.)

I'm not saying that Speal (or anyone) definitely did or did not cheat. I don't know that, though others might. But the situation is ridiculous, and should be rectified for future Games. In an event like this where hundreds of people are striving for a few spots (and spending good money just for the chance) we should not allow a select few to play by a different set of rules and just trust that there was no impropriety.
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Old 04-22-2009, 08:10 AM   #16
Renee Lee
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Re: CrossFit Games Qualifier Observations

allow me to add that there are a LOT of duties to organize events of these size that have nothing to do with the workouts. The possible workouts were probably all thrown into a hopper and somebody OTHER than those competing pulled them the week prior. i'm pretty astounded that you guys aren't giving the athletes the benefit of the doubt here.
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Old 04-22-2009, 08:10 AM   #17
Laura Kurth
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Re: CrossFit Games Qualifier Observations

Joe, I think you make good points. Logically argued.
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Old 04-22-2009, 08:50 AM   #18
Chrissy McConnell
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Re: CrossFit Games Qualifier Observations

Matt, thanks for initiating conversation here. This year's Qualifiers were the very first CrossFit events of their type, and as such, they're bound to have a few areas of constructive criticism. There were a LOT of things done very, very well and a few areas that could be considered for improvement in organizing for next year. I don't consider your observations offensive or negative in nature, but plain ol' good-natured constructive criticism. That's what this is about -- giving good feedback so that next year's events run more efficiently and effectively than this year's.

I don't hear anybody on this thread saying "Speal (or any other competitor for that matter) knew the workouts ahead of time so he cheated!" For people who are taking it that way, I'll speak for others and say that's not how the comments were intended. Although I don't know these athletes personally, I do know the spirit of this community and I feel confident that those competitors involved in the planning of their particular events did their best to not create an unfair competitive advantage.

That said, the appearance of said impropriety is there. There's no way around that. If you want to keep comments of potential cheating from the rest of the community at bay, then perhaps next year it would be a good idea to enforce a rule that no organizer can compete and no competitor can organize. This community is large enough that to have separate groups of organizers and competitors.

I think a bigger issue here is Matt's comment about unsafe movements being unofficially dubbed the standard in practice due to an unfortunate lack of volunteers proficient in judging movement.
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Old 04-22-2009, 09:11 AM   #19
Lurene Grenier
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Re: CrossFit Games Qualifier Observations

When did the internet get a pass from the normal rules of rudeness?

It is not okay to (in couched language or otherwise) insult the honor of another human being without due cause. You should be ashamed of talking about the "appearance of impropriety". If you know something, then share it with those responsible for the games in private. If you know nothing, don't speak.

Either way, do it discreetly.

I vote for pukey on this thread.
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Old 04-22-2009, 09:25 AM   #20
Michael Carr
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Re: CrossFit Games Qualifier Observations

I don't think there has been any good reason or valid evidence to prove that anyone knew workouts ahead of time or cheated. I also love how just cause someone is superior in some sport or task that the people that cant meet that kind of performance assume the person is cheating as to make them feel better for being inferior to that individual. My guess is you could have given everyone else the wod in advance and not Speal and the same result would have more than likely occurred. He has already proved he is the best of the best....so to ASSUME he knew in advance because he won is just silly....especially without ANY evidence. Just my opinion. Otherwise, I like the discussion..........
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