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Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

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Old 04-16-2009, 10:55 AM   #1
Sean J Hunter
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LSD Training bad....maybe not?...Advice sort.

Hey guys,

My understanding is limited here, so my argument might not be valid, but I welcome all feedback; simply in search of knowledge...

My understanding of the Crossfit Cardiovascular Endurance theory is this...
"Don't do endurance training (Long Slow Distance (LSD); just do interval Training (IT) and Fast Continuous training (FCT) (i.e. WoD). You'll still achieve a high level of running ability even over long distance events and achieve it with less time and less pain.

Did I butcher Coaches word sufficiently there? You get my point though...? (ref: "What about Cardio" CFJ 2004).

Following is some comments from a CF certified guy, commenting on the training necessary for Multiday Super Endurance events. He essentially disagrees with the CF style of 'Cardio' as insufficient for Multiday Super Endurance stuff...

I know there is CF - Endurance, but they don't seem to go over 90 minutes of cardio either?

I would LOVE to hear people’s thoughts on this; I would LOVE to divorce my LSD training, but may be throwing out my life blood?

All in...

ARTICAL FOLLOWS

Quote:
The idea that athletes have to train slow to get faster is counterintuitive to gym rats like me. In recent years, there has been a backlash against LSD training as causing overuse injures, and not being effective. "Training slow just makes you slow," has been the common refrain.

I certainly was in this camp, but my opinion has changed dramatically. Instead of thinking performance training, think of the LSD effort as energy system training. We're working here to train your body to use fat as a fuel source, instead of carbs.

The best explanation I've found so far is in "Base Building for Cyclists."

"Carbohydrates ignite and burn much like the matches and kindling that your use to start a fire," writes author Thomas Chapple. "Fats are more like the logs on the fire that burn slowly and can produce a long-lasting fuel source."

Chapple writes that we have 1,500-2,000 calories of carbohydrate energy stored in our bodies at any one time - enough for 60-90 minutes of "high intensity" effort.

"The terms hitting the wall and bonking refer to the point when there is not enough carbohydrate energy left in the body to support the effort levels being demanded of working muscles," he explains, "When you run out of carbohydrates, you will need to slow down or stop because your body will be forced to begin breaking down proteins (such as muscle fibres). In effect, this cannibalized the body for fuel."

The idea behind base building or LSD training is train our bodies to use fat as fuel, and conserve carbs.

"Fat stores can support muscle contractions for long periods of easy to moderately hard efforts without any risk of being depleted," Chapple writes. "You are not likely to run out of fat! On average, an athlete may have 60,000 to 100,000 calories of fat available." - compared to just 2,000 calories of carbs.

"Cyclists who ride hard every workout are more likely to be teaching their body to prefer carbohydrate over fat utilization," Chapple explains. But athletes, through base training, can also train their muscles to "run on, or favor, fat even at moderately high intensities."

The more you are able to train your body to use fat as a fuel source, the harder and faster you can push in this fat-burning energy mode, before your carb energy system kicks fully in.

"To support our body's ability to ride harder longer, you need to teach it to spare carbohydrates," Chapple concludes.
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Old 04-16-2009, 11:07 AM   #2
Shane Skowron
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Re: LSD Training bad....maybe not?...Advice sort.

First, who wrote this article? You said he is CF-certified but no name. Is this Rob Shaul?

You are right that CFE generally doesn't go over 90 minutes of constant activity.

If you do a smart Zone or paleo type diet, your body is going to rely on fat anyway, so doing LSD training to achieve this is unnecessary.

Aside from this, I don't see how this refutes the success that CFE athletes have been experiencing. Train really fast and get super strong legs and you'll be able to use all that endurance and strentch to go for long distances - it's pretty simple.
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Old 04-16-2009, 11:23 AM   #3
Eddie Watts
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Re: LSD Training bad....maybe not?...Advice sort.

read this
http://www.board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=34319 wfs

then repost please.
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Old 04-16-2009, 11:39 AM   #4
Steven Low
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Re: LSD Training bad....maybe not?...Advice sort.

Well, if you're planning to be advanced/elite you do need to run the mileages regardless. You need the running efficiency that high mileage produces.

However, to ignore that fact that ALL elite distance runners DO intervals multiple times a week is really dumb. If you want to train like the elites then you gotta do the mileage + intervals.

But if you just want a decently-good time you can probably do it with just intervals. Most people that run races just to do it only do distance... and not that faster either which is just stupid.
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Old 04-16-2009, 11:47 AM   #5
Eric R Cohen
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Re: LSD Training bad....maybe not?...Advice sort.

Go back to the basics...Crossfit is general physical preparedness. Crossfit is not multiday endurance event (MEE?) training. While a CF athlete can probably suffer through a MEE, he/she will not likely excel.
At a recent cert, the trainers were pretty clear (and it is common sense) that sport specific training will achieve greater results in the specific sport than CF.
IMO, your goal should be to find the right blend of CF and MEE training that works for you and meets your goals.
From experience, I've found the more long days I get in before I go climbing, the less I suffer.
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Old 04-16-2009, 12:30 PM   #6
Robert Callahan
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Re: LSD Training bad....maybe not?...Advice sort.

Quote:
Chapple writes that we have 1,500-2,000 calories of carbohydrate energy stored in our bodies at any one time - enough for 60-90 minutes of "high intensity" effort.
This statement does not make sense to me. I know we have carbohydrates stored in our muscles and in our liver as glycogen. I think this is where the 1,500 - 2,000 number comes from. But as far as being able to run off of primarily carbohydrates for 60-90 min.... I had been under the impression that we are only running off of glycogen primarily during the first 30-90 seconds of activity (while the glycolitic energy pathway was contributing the major amount of ATP) and that efforts lasting longer than a minute or two then move into primarily using aerobic metabolism which is primarily run by fat metabolism.

Is this way off base? Can we run off of exclusively carbohydrates for 60-90 minutes???
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Old 04-16-2009, 12:54 PM   #7
Sara Fleming
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Re: LSD Training bad....maybe not?...Advice sort.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Callahan View Post
This statement does not make sense to me. I know we have carbohydrates stored in our muscles and in our liver as glycogen. I think this is where the 1,500 - 2,000 number comes from. But as far as being able to run off of primarily carbohydrates for 60-90 min.... I had been under the impression that we are only running off of glycogen primarily during the first 30-90 seconds of activity (while the glycolitic energy pathway was contributing the major amount of ATP) and that efforts lasting longer than a minute or two then move into primarily using aerobic metabolism which is primarily run by fat metabolism.

Is this way off base? Can we run off of exclusively carbohydrates for 60-90 minutes???
Well, its not like all of your muscle fibers are in sync. As muscle fibers fatigue and more are gradually recruited into the effort they exhaust their CP pathways first, then glycogen, then convert to aerobic metabolism. With one minute of rest, the CP pathways can be completely restored. That's why it takes some people 20-45 minutes to get their "second wind". That's the point that they are mostly in aerobic metabolism. Getting there is the grueling death-wish state that we are usually working in.

And, carbohydrates are required to run the fat-burning aerobic pathways. So, no, at least from what I understand, during the first 60-90 minutes of a LSD effort, it may still be a carbohydrate dominated metabolic effort, but not carbohydrate exclusive.
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Old 04-16-2009, 12:58 PM   #8
Sean J Hunter
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Re: LSD Training bad....maybe not?...Advice sort.

OK guys,

Thank you all for the replys. Really appreciate it.


HI SHANE,

Yes the ‘comment’, (not really an article) came from Rob Shaul

Quote:
If you do a smart Zone or paleo type diet, your body is going to rely on fat anyway, so doing LSD training to achieve this is unnecessary.
So are you saying that this kind of diet can train our bodies to burn fat instead of protein on Multi-Day Events (MDE) therefore negating the need for LSD training?

Please read my post again. I, nor does Mr Shaul refute CF-E athletes success’s. Here we are specifically talking about MDE Stuff, there are some concerns out there that a purely CF-E type training will cause an athlete to run out of steam (i.e. by day 3 kind of thing).


HI STEVEN

Quote:
Well, if you're planning to be advanced/elite you do need to run the mileages regardless. You need the running efficiency that high mileage produces.

However, to ignore that fact that ALL elite distance runners DO intervals multiple times a week is really dumb. If you want to train like the elites then you gotta do the mileage + intervals.

But if you just want a decently-good time you can probably do it with just intervals. Most people that run races just to do it only do distance... and not that faster either which is just stupid.
Thanks for that post there, that’s my thinking as well. CF system will not produce world class results, just really damn good ones, again CF is not forging specific High Performance, it’s forging elite ‘holistic’ fitness.


HI ERIC

I agree with you, I had a CF trainer give me Mr Glassmans Article “What about Cardio”. The trainer felt that I could cut LSD out of my program. I liked the idea and didn’t mind what he said, just wanted to do my homework before I change my program. Don’t get me wrong, in the world of PT, we’re all guessing half of the time.


HI ROBERT

Yes, great question, I’d like to understand the energy pathways better myself, apparently there is some good writing on it my Paliquin? Maybe someone can shed some light?

Regards

Sean
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Old 04-16-2009, 01:01 PM   #9
Sean J Hunter
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Re: LSD Training bad....maybe not?...Advice sort.

Thanks for the explanation there Sara

And Eddie thanks for the link, It's a bit long for me to read now and repost, but I will.

Great stuff!

Thanks


Sean
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Old 04-16-2009, 01:24 PM   #10
Donald Lee
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Re: LSD Training bad....maybe not?...Advice sort.

Intervals and LSD have their purpose. The magic's in how you implement them. I know that's kind of vague, but it's complicated.
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