OHS and Squat Snatch

Graham Hayes · 05-18-2004, 11:46 AM

I've been practicing the snatch a lot recently. And as always the overhead squat. Since I've doubled my max to a whopping 80lb in the squat snatch in a couple weeks I was wondering how much people overhead squat compared to their squat snatch. Since I started this topic unprepared:blush: I can do 90lb for 5 so I estimate 100lb 1RM.

The reason I ask this is based on the clean CFJ July 2003, where it says your max clean should be about a 1/4 of your combined deadlift and front squat 1RM.

Lincoln Brigham · 05-18-2004, 01:43 PM

My max overhead squat is 80kg. My max snatch is 72.5kg

Dan John · 05-18-2004, 02:09 PM

315 OHS
314 Snatch

I had that one extra pound of security.

Barry Cooper · 05-19-2004, 12:34 PM

Dan,

That's amazing.

Graham Hayes · 05-19-2004, 01:46 PM

Sweet! Now to demonstrate bad science...seems that the snatch and OHS are pretty close together especially the further your progress in the snatch. Which is interesting considering the way you recieve the bar isn't what you would think is an ideal way to get a max OHS.

Barry Cooper · 05-19-2004, 02:20 PM

You could probably infer from those numbers that the limiting factor--at least in Dan's case--isn't the pull but what you can actually stand up with. At least I think that's the inference.

Dan, if you don't mind sharing, how much do you Snatch grip High Pull, like to your forehead or chin, or whatever your goal is?

Dan John · 05-20-2004, 09:10 AM

If I would have been able to sit down with myself in my prime with what I know now...the snatch number would have been much, much higher. I was a toe puller and missed everything out front...or I had to sprint out of the deep position.

Once you master the squat snatch (let's say a bodyweight snatch), I think you improve the performance of the snatch by constantly working on specific weaknesses.

I know the Greeks and Bulgarians snatch up to seven times a day, but I am more of a fan of the Cuban system where they use straps in training, do lots of triples and do much of their snatch training with 80% singles. They push the snatch up by not missing a lot of snatches.

So, two thoughts here:
One, work your weaknesses
Two, don't miss.

Most lifters are weak in the RDL position, so I think that you need to spend a lot of time working the RDL with big weights ripping your hammies apart. Next, I always found that Snatch Grip Deadlifts to the knees were a great snatch exercise as you got used to really heavy weights off the floor. If you can combine a set of RDLs with Snatch DLs, you would be better off that classic pulls.

The classic pull has almost zero value with the modern "heels only" technique. The traps are not pulling the bar higher, they are pulling the body under, so any of the classic pulls can be counterproductive.

Having said this, Master athletes may find that forehead high high pulls can work speed and strength without the overtraining of the nervous system or messing with old injuries...assuming the Master has good technique!

At my best, I never Power Snatched but was an excellent Power Snatcher...because of the poor technique that I had. Today, I would argue that a lifter Squat Snatch, RDL Squat Snatch, RDL, Snatch Deadlift to the Knees, Back Squat and "be more athletic" to improve the snatch. (Assuming good technique and a solid overhead squat...solid meaning "around" the best snatch amount.)

I know it doesn't answer your pulling question, but when I was at my peak, I didn't have the understanding that I have today. In a typical workout at the Murray Institute for Lifelong Fitness, my snatch technique is better...more fluid, faster and secure...than when I was nationally ranked.

Lincoln Brigham · 05-20-2004, 10:49 AM

Sucks getting older. (Unless you compete in Masters competition, then you can't WAIT to get into the next age bracket. heheh.)

Good stuff. I agree that high pulls are good for strength and speed, but they mess with your technique. A risky trade-off. There are some weightlifting coaches that won't let their lifters do them at all, or at most very sparingly.

Kevin Roddy · 05-20-2004, 12:39 PM

Dan - Interestingly enough, I just read your OHS article today. Great stuff. I liked the talk of "the exercise" - the power snatch + OHS combo. I might do some focus on that and see what happens. I have noticed that snatch variations seem to help me with my cast and handstand. ;D

-Kevin

Dan John · 05-20-2004, 12:44 PM

Currently, I am doing the snatch (again! you know, I am amazed at the number of surgeries it takes and rehab when you decide to increase the numbers of bones in your wrist) in the following manner:

Rep One: (all with straps...granted I don't recommend them, but I need them...)Power Snatch and Overhead Squat. Lower bar to waist...

Rep Two: Slide bar down to RDL and Snatch when you can't push the *** back anymore or the chin farther ahead...a full RDL Squat Snatch. Slide the bar down...

Rep Three: Keep bringing the bar down until it just grazes the floor, full squat snatch.

I do sets of those. It really feels good and gets the system going, but, since you focus on technique, they seem to get better every rep.

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05-18-2004, 11:46 AM	#1
Graham Hayes Member Profile: Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Sidmouth Devon Posts: 880	I've been practicing the snatch a lot recently. And as always the overhead squat. Since I've doubled my max to a whopping 80lb in the squat snatch in a couple weeks I was wondering how much people overhead squat compared to their squat snatch. Since I started this topic unprepared:blush: I can do 90lb for 5 so I estimate 100lb 1RM. The reason I ask this is based on the clean CFJ July 2003, where it says your max clean should be about a 1/4 of your combined deadlift and front squat 1RM.

05-18-2004, 01:43 PM	#2
Lincoln Brigham Member Profile: Join Date: May 2003 Location: Kirkland WA Posts: 3,618	My max overhead squat is 80kg. My max snatch is 72.5kg

05-18-2004, 02:09 PM	#3
Dan John Departed Profile: Join Date: Dec 1969 Posts: 365	315 OHS 314 Snatch I had that one extra pound of security.

05-19-2004, 12:34 PM	#4
Barry Cooper Member Profile: Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Louisville KY Posts: 2,188	Dan, That's amazing.

05-19-2004, 01:46 PM	#5
Graham Hayes Member Profile: Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Sidmouth Devon Posts: 880	Sweet! Now to demonstrate bad science...seems that the snatch and OHS are pretty close together especially the further your progress in the snatch. Which is interesting considering the way you recieve the bar isn't what you would think is an ideal way to get a max OHS.

05-19-2004, 02:20 PM	#6
Barry Cooper Member Profile: Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Louisville KY Posts: 2,188	You could probably infer from those numbers that the limiting factor--at least in Dan's case--isn't the pull but what you can actually stand up with. At least I think that's the inference. Dan, if you don't mind sharing, how much do you Snatch grip High Pull, like to your forehead or chin, or whatever your goal is?

05-20-2004, 09:10 AM	#7
Dan John Departed Profile: Join Date: Dec 1969 Posts: 365	If I would have been able to sit down with myself in my prime with what I know now...the snatch number would have been much, much higher. I was a toe puller and missed everything out front...or I had to sprint out of the deep position. Once you master the squat snatch (let's say a bodyweight snatch), I think you improve the performance of the snatch by constantly working on specific weaknesses. I know the Greeks and Bulgarians snatch up to seven times a day, but I am more of a fan of the Cuban system where they use straps in training, do lots of triples and do much of their snatch training with 80% singles. They push the snatch up by not missing a lot of snatches. So, two thoughts here: One, work your weaknesses Two, don't miss. Most lifters are weak in the RDL position, so I think that you need to spend a lot of time working the RDL with big weights ripping your hammies apart. Next, I always found that Snatch Grip Deadlifts to the knees were a great snatch exercise as you got used to really heavy weights off the floor. If you can combine a set of RDLs with Snatch DLs, you would be better off that classic pulls. The classic pull has almost zero value with the modern "heels only" technique. The traps are not pulling the bar higher, they are pulling the body under, so any of the classic pulls can be counterproductive. Having said this, Master athletes may find that forehead high high pulls can work speed and strength without the overtraining of the nervous system or messing with old injuries...assuming the Master has good technique! At my best, I never Power Snatched but was an excellent Power Snatcher...because of the poor technique that I had. Today, I would argue that a lifter Squat Snatch, RDL Squat Snatch, RDL, Snatch Deadlift to the Knees, Back Squat and "be more athletic" to improve the snatch. (Assuming good technique and a solid overhead squat...solid meaning "around" the best snatch amount.) I know it doesn't answer your pulling question, but when I was at my peak, I didn't have the understanding that I have today. In a typical workout at the Murray Institute for Lifelong Fitness, my snatch technique is better...more fluid, faster and secure...than when I was nationally ranked.

05-20-2004, 10:49 AM	#8
Lincoln Brigham Member Profile: Join Date: May 2003 Location: Kirkland WA Posts: 3,618	Sucks getting older. (Unless you compete in Masters competition, then you can't WAIT to get into the next age bracket. heheh.) Good stuff. I agree that high pulls are good for strength and speed, but they mess with your technique. A risky trade-off. There are some weightlifting coaches that won't let their lifters do them at all, or at most very sparingly.

05-20-2004, 12:39 PM	#9
Kevin Roddy Member Profile: Join Date: May 2003 Location: Harrison TWP Michigan Posts: 769	Dan - Interestingly enough, I just read your OHS article today. Great stuff. I liked the talk of "the exercise" - the power snatch + OHS combo. I might do some focus on that and see what happens. I have noticed that snatch variations seem to help me with my cast and handstand. ;D -Kevin

05-20-2004, 12:44 PM	#10
Dan John Departed Profile: Join Date: Dec 1969 Posts: 365	Currently, I am doing the snatch (again! you know, I am amazed at the number of surgeries it takes and rehab when you decide to increase the numbers of bones in your wrist) in the following manner: Rep One: (all with straps...granted I don't recommend them, but I need them...)Power Snatch and Overhead Squat. Lower bar to waist... Rep Two: Slide bar down to RDL and Snatch when you can't push the *** back anymore or the chin farther ahead...a full RDL Squat Snatch. Slide the bar down... Rep Three: Keep bringing the bar down until it just grazes the floor, full squat snatch. I do sets of those. It really feels good and gets the system going, but, since you focus on technique, they seem to get better every rep.