Static Holds, Planches etc

Graham Tidey · 02-06-2006, 05:27 AM

I'm very confused as to what static holds do for a person. I'm sure they increase strength, but "what kind"? You lift something heavy off the ground and sooner or later you have to put it down, which is the principle of the planche from what I can see. Developing the strength (endurance?) not to put it down. Then why don't people do the same with dumbells, i.e- hold them for time.

Also, to any gymnasts out there, do you do the squat holds? Against a wall in a sitting position for time? These must serve some purpose to developing stronger legs.

I'm thinking about doing static days in an ME black box program, as I don't have any weights and would quite like to be able to knock out some planche pushups, but don't want to "waste a day" of working out on something if it isn't productive.

Also, for those who have trained the planches and front levers, what sets, tabatas, timings, ladders, did you use to get there?

Bit of a brain spew, so sorry! But thoughts are appreciated.

Steve Shafley · 02-06-2006, 07:04 AM

Static holds can have their place in training. I think the gymnastics derived holds help you develop prioreception and the specific balance and strength to advance in those movements.

Other static holds can be useful in developing strength in the outer regions of your range-of-motion. This is an entirely different topic that is rarely touched upon.

Arden Cogar Jr. · 02-06-2006, 08:58 AM

Graham,
I use static holds at various portions of my training regimen. I do however, like to use much more than what I'm capable of handling for a very limited range of motion. To me, it really fires the CNS to move weights under these conditions. Further, it keeps me firing when I do my next workout.

For me the static holds vary from lockout deadlifts, to lockout squats, to lockout push press on a power rack with more than 315. The stress alone of holding the weight gets me firing. The limited range of motion keeps me from injury.

all the best,
Arden

Roger Harrell · 02-06-2006, 10:00 AM

Something about static holds under massive loads (or in the case of gymnastics hold severly mechanically disadvantaged positions) incites strength gains. I've waffled back and forth some on training for static holds in that I've not been sure what works best, working ROM excersizes through positions in which you want to do the hold (eg cross pullouts vs static crosses) or just working the holds. I've come to the conclusion that doing both is optimal.

A planch comes from doing tons of handstands, presses, specific planch conditioning. Long topic for a post.

(Message edited by rogair on February 06, 2006)

Blair Robert Lowe · 02-06-2006, 10:42 AM

Yeah, we do a lot of squat holds, Hanging L's or V's to the bar similar to hanging windshield wipers. Pushup holds or support holds.
A lot of the basic hold positions are in the beginning before working the movement dynamically and shaping. Then you come back to them later and step up the load or difficulty.

Steven Low · 02-06-2006, 11:31 AM

A lot of the leg strength and back strength gymnasts develop is through plyometrics, which, when used over long periods of time can develop good gains in strength/power while keeping the muscles relatively small. Of course, those of us that have not done them for a long time and those of us that don't really do gymnastics competitively or whatnot don't need to keep the muscles as small and powerful so things like squats and deadlifts and other weight bearing activities are used for the purpose of strengthening the legs.

Static holds are very important from what I've seen. Like Roger, I've gotten as good gains in muscle development and strength doing isometric holds as I have from doing any other exercise on rings or in static holds like planche training. Isometric holds have gone out of style in the "real world" -- i.e. bodybuilding and powerlifting -- which basically govern what people accept. Like it or not, we are all influenced by them at least somewhat.. some more than others. Unfortunately, the people that are practicing sports that need strength gains relative to bodyweight that isometric holds provide are not the ones asking questions. They are usually given a training program by their sports coach or weightlifting trainer. The people that are asking the questions are those who want to be bodybuilders and isometric holds aren't really useful for 'building mass', although I would have to disagree with that. In any case, that means isometric holds are not being exposed to people as much as hypertrophy exercises and "how to build mass" routines are. The general IQ of the population will go up in 'bodybuilding' IQ, but specific strength training including isometric holds stays relatively low except for those of us who are interested in that kind of stuff or the relative few that either figure it out from lifting within their sport or the coaches themselves.

Er, yeah.., I forgot what my original point was but isometric holds can be useful to generate good strength and muscle gains if they are done right. Mixed strength-hypertrophy would be approximately about the 4-6 rep range if you were going by lifting standards. I think it's a pretty good rep range to be in when lifting weights... especially for those of us who lack the muscle mass to do strength moves. :happy:

Christopher Sommer · 02-06-2006, 01:47 PM

The following young man decided to comprise his training entirely of static holds. This was definitely what I had intended when I wrote the article in question, but the results are very interesting nonetheless.

"Hi, I'm an adventure racer who's trying to find simple ways of increasing his strength without having to go to the gym or gaining too much weight (which over a 24-36hr race, can really slow one down). By the way, I think the atmosphere on this board is great, and that you guys are truly lucky to have world-class coaches that share their knowledge and experience freely.

I started with Coach Sommer's bodyweight article alone just over 3 months ago, and can now hold a front lever with one leg bent (BradJ's variation) for about 40 seconds, and a tuck planche for about 30 seconds before my hips drop lower than my shoulders.

I have to say that I've already noticed my arms and shoulders getting more muscular, and my abs and wrists feel much stronger (I do the tuck planche on paralette-like bars). In terms of carryover benefits, I haven't done any chin-up training in about a year, and could only do 7 four months ago. I tried my max last week, and hit 15. This is without having done *any* chin-up training or even any front lever pullups in that time. Of note is that my max while training weighted chin-ups regularly a couple of years ago was 18.

My dips also increased from 8 to 16, without training them specifically or losing any weight.

My L-sit went from 7 seconds to 30 seconds with no specific training, which I believe comes from the front lever, but also from the tuck planche as it requires one to forcefully contract his abs to tuck the legs up.

This is also the first time I started the Kayak season without having my shoulders burn half-way into my first training session from holding the paddle up (likely due to the planche training).

I'm truly amazed with the results. Although non-adventure racer friends of mine are getting faster results (ie getting bigger) by hitting the weights, none of them spent as little time as me strength training (2 minutes per day total!!!), and I doubt they're hitting their stabilizers like I am. . . Dave"

Yours in Fitness,
Coach Sommer

OlympicBodies@aol.com
http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode3/229/
http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=512003

Jamila Bey · 02-07-2006, 02:22 AM

What kind of recovery would one need after practicing static holds?

I have gotten up to a 20 second L sit, and I've been doing those every day for about 2 or 3 minutes.

Should I do every other day or what?

Graham Tidey · 02-07-2006, 04:46 AM

I've brought myself to the conclusion that strength is strength. If I'm not strong enough to hold myself off the ground then I want to be. That kind of strength must surely carry over.

Roger Harrell · 02-07-2006, 09:17 AM

As far as how much recovery is required depends on a lot of factors. Your current fitness level, what specific static holds you are working, how you work them, etc. L sits every day is certainly sustainable. Just keep track of your progress. You'll know if you're underrecovering.

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02-06-2006, 05:27 AM	#1
Graham Tidey Member Profile: Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Lisbon Alameda Posts: 377	I'm very confused as to what static holds do for a person. I'm sure they increase strength, but "what kind"? You lift something heavy off the ground and sooner or later you have to put it down, which is the principle of the planche from what I can see. Developing the strength (endurance?) not to put it down. Then why don't people do the same with dumbells, i.e- hold them for time. Also, to any gymnasts out there, do you do the squat holds? Against a wall in a sitting position for time? These must serve some purpose to developing stronger legs. I'm thinking about doing static days in an ME black box program, as I don't have any weights and would quite like to be able to knock out some planche pushups, but don't want to "waste a day" of working out on something if it isn't productive. Also, for those who have trained the planches and front levers, what sets, tabatas, timings, ladders, did you use to get there? Bit of a brain spew, so sorry! But thoughts are appreciated.

02-06-2006, 07:04 AM	#2
Steve Shafley Banned Profile: Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Saginaw MI Posts: 508	Static holds can have their place in training. I think the gymnastics derived holds help you develop prioreception and the specific balance and strength to advance in those movements. Other static holds can be useful in developing strength in the outer regions of your range-of-motion. This is an entirely different topic that is rarely touched upon.

02-06-2006, 08:58 AM	#3
Arden Cogar Jr. Member Profile: Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Charleston WV Posts: 914	Graham, I use static holds at various portions of my training regimen. I do however, like to use much more than what I'm capable of handling for a very limited range of motion. To me, it really fires the CNS to move weights under these conditions. Further, it keeps me firing when I do my next workout. For me the static holds vary from lockout deadlifts, to lockout squats, to lockout push press on a power rack with more than 315. The stress alone of holding the weight gets me firing. The limited range of motion keeps me from injury. all the best, Arden

02-06-2006, 10:00 AM	#4
Roger Harrell Affiliate Profile: Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: San Rafael CA Posts: 2,258	Something about static holds under massive loads (or in the case of gymnastics hold severly mechanically disadvantaged positions) incites strength gains. I've waffled back and forth some on training for static holds in that I've not been sure what works best, working ROM excersizes through positions in which you want to do the hold (eg cross pullouts vs static crosses) or just working the holds. I've come to the conclusion that doing both is optimal. A planch comes from doing tons of handstands, presses, specific planch conditioning. Long topic for a post. (Message edited by rogair on February 06, 2006)

02-06-2006, 10:42 AM	#5
Blair Robert Lowe Member Profile: Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Sacramento CA Posts: 3,921	Yeah, we do a lot of squat holds, Hanging L's or V's to the bar similar to hanging windshield wipers. Pushup holds or support holds. A lot of the basic hold positions are in the beginning before working the movement dynamically and shaping. Then you come back to them later and step up the load or difficulty.

02-06-2006, 11:31 AM	#6
Steven Low Member Profile: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: silver spring maryland Posts: 8,585	A lot of the leg strength and back strength gymnasts develop is through plyometrics, which, when used over long periods of time can develop good gains in strength/power while keeping the muscles relatively small. Of course, those of us that have not done them for a long time and those of us that don't really do gymnastics competitively or whatnot don't need to keep the muscles as small and powerful so things like squats and deadlifts and other weight bearing activities are used for the purpose of strengthening the legs. Static holds are very important from what I've seen. Like Roger, I've gotten as good gains in muscle development and strength doing isometric holds as I have from doing any other exercise on rings or in static holds like planche training. Isometric holds have gone out of style in the "real world" -- i.e. bodybuilding and powerlifting -- which basically govern what people accept. Like it or not, we are all influenced by them at least somewhat.. some more than others. Unfortunately, the people that are practicing sports that need strength gains relative to bodyweight that isometric holds provide are not the ones asking questions. They are usually given a training program by their sports coach or weightlifting trainer. The people that are asking the questions are those who want to be bodybuilders and isometric holds aren't really useful for 'building mass', although I would have to disagree with that. In any case, that means isometric holds are not being exposed to people as much as hypertrophy exercises and "how to build mass" routines are. The general IQ of the population will go up in 'bodybuilding' IQ, but specific strength training including isometric holds stays relatively low except for those of us who are interested in that kind of stuff or the relative few that either figure it out from lifting within their sport or the coaches themselves. Er, yeah.., I forgot what my original point was but isometric holds can be useful to generate good strength and muscle gains if they are done right. Mixed strength-hypertrophy would be approximately about the 4-6 rep range if you were going by lifting standards. I think it's a pretty good rep range to be in when lifting weights... especially for those of us who lack the muscle mass to do strength moves. :happy:

02-06-2006, 01:47 PM	#7
Christopher Sommer Departed Profile: Join Date: Dec 1969 Posts: 225	The following young man decided to comprise his training entirely of static holds. This was definitely what I had intended when I wrote the article in question, but the results are very interesting nonetheless. "Hi, I'm an adventure racer who's trying to find simple ways of increasing his strength without having to go to the gym or gaining too much weight (which over a 24-36hr race, can really slow one down). By the way, I think the atmosphere on this board is great, and that you guys are truly lucky to have world-class coaches that share their knowledge and experience freely. I started with Coach Sommer's bodyweight article alone just over 3 months ago, and can now hold a front lever with one leg bent (BradJ's variation) for about 40 seconds, and a tuck planche for about 30 seconds before my hips drop lower than my shoulders. I have to say that I've already noticed my arms and shoulders getting more muscular, and my abs and wrists feel much stronger (I do the tuck planche on paralette-like bars). In terms of carryover benefits, I haven't done any chin-up training in about a year, and could only do 7 four months ago. I tried my max last week, and hit 15. This is without having done any chin-up training or even any front lever pullups in that time. Of note is that my max while training weighted chin-ups regularly a couple of years ago was 18. My dips also increased from 8 to 16, without training them specifically or losing any weight. My L-sit went from 7 seconds to 30 seconds with no specific training, which I believe comes from the front lever, but also from the tuck planche as it requires one to forcefully contract his abs to tuck the legs up. This is also the first time I started the Kayak season without having my shoulders burn half-way into my first training session from holding the paddle up (likely due to the planche training). I'm truly amazed with the results. Although non-adventure racer friends of mine are getting faster results (ie getting bigger) by hitting the weights, none of them spent as little time as me strength training (2 minutes per day total!!!), and I doubt they're hitting their stabilizers like I am. . . Dave" Yours in Fitness, Coach Sommer OlympicBodies@aol.com http://www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode3/229/ http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=512003

02-07-2006, 02:22 AM	#8
Jamila Bey Member Profile: Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Washington DC Posts: 319	What kind of recovery would one need after practicing static holds? I have gotten up to a 20 second L sit, and I've been doing those every day for about 2 or 3 minutes. Should I do every other day or what?

02-07-2006, 04:46 AM	#9
Graham Tidey Member Profile: Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Lisbon Alameda Posts: 377	I've brought myself to the conclusion that strength is strength. If I'm not strong enough to hold myself off the ground then I want to be. That kind of strength must surely carry over.

02-07-2006, 09:17 AM	#10
Roger Harrell Affiliate Profile: Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: San Rafael CA Posts: 2,258	As far as how much recovery is required depends on a lot of factors. Your current fitness level, what specific static holds you are working, how you work them, etc. L sits every day is certainly sustainable. Just keep track of your progress. You'll know if you're underrecovering.