Military Women Can Hack It

[Lynne Pitts]

Because I'm a glutton for punishment?

Because I like to get advice on how to behave from the king of tact?

Maybe there aren't a lot of other military women on the board?

Or Tirzah just hit the nail on the head.

The bottom line tests are the way to go for the operational missions. Drag the dummy, haul the hose, do tasks in the bomb suit...go/no go.

And a baseline fitness standard, normalized for the real, inescapable, physiological differences between men and women, otherwise.

[John Walsh]

Who's the "king of tact"?

[Sheila Gruenwald]

YOU asked... smile!!! I am not military but I am Search and Rescue- We have the same standards as the guys for both land and air-

Personal opinion-- If you want to do the job you should have the same standards, male/female. We don't let people be doctors that can't pass med school so what should be the difference for any other occupation..??? My dad was a National Guard, raised three boys and two girls and there was no gender preference anywhere,from peeling potatoes and scrubbing floors to hauling wood and hunting.

sheila

[David Werner]

Neal you couldn't be more wrong.

Physical standards for job selection and qualification need to be based on the demands of the job. Period.

Nature doesn't care about goofy human notions of equality. In the case of job performance, no consideration at all should be given to gender, race, disability, etc. Can the person do the job or not. Women SEALs? Sure, as long as they can do the same job.

Only when we talk about health recommendation standards should we consider sex, age, race etc.

Regards
Dave Werner
Crossfit North

[Neal Winkler]

I don't believe we are in disagreement, Dave. Equal jobs = equal standards, that's what I said.

[Don Stevenson]

Perhaps i should have clarified what i said to include the fact that in the Australian military women aren't permitted to serve in frontline roles.

I am a firm believer that anyone who wants to do a job, whether it's fire, police or military should be able to do the tasks required of them.

I'm just saying that if you set arbitrary fitness standards for things like pushups or runs times then you need to be realistic about scaling.

[paul arestan]

As far as I know, it has never been proven that there is a difference in strength and other fitness components between men and women.
In the Mountain Troops where I served, like in any other corps in the French army, uniforms have no gender, you were not a male or a female soldier, you were just a soldier.
The requirements were exactly the same for every body, because, at the end of the day, the job had to be done.
Having different standards for males and females is accepting that females are not equal to males, and, in my opinion, this is sexual discrimination.

[Don Stevenson]

Errr Paul have you had a look at the world records for olympic lifting recently? What about for the 400, 800 and 5000m?

Every olympic medallist is at the peak of physical development for their sports. A quick check reveals that even at the same weight men are simply faster and stronger when you take it to the limit.

For example Halil Mutlu holds the world record for males under 56kg in the snatch and clean and jerk (138 and 168kg) His snatch is not matched by even the best 75kg+ female lifter and his clean and jerk is only surpassed by the 75+ plus women.

Keep in mind that in the 75+ category a lot of the women weigh well over 90kg.

[Jack Westman]

I have over 18 years in the Army, the majority of it in Special Forces and personally I have nothing against women in combat roles. There is no reason if they can physically handle the job that they should not be allowed to do it. Women freedom fighters have been fighting in South America for decades.
Supposed moral arguments make no sense either. Stating that “America is not ready to see women come home in body bags”, which is one common argument, is ridiculous since it already happens.
All that being said there are a few things that have not been discussed in this forum that should be addressed:

1) While I have no problem with women in combat units, I do have a problem with them in the same unit as men. This is not because I don’t like working with women, it is for what I consider a good reason: It interferes with the combat effectiveness of that unit.
It has been tested and shown repeatedly that men will react completely differently when women are involved than they would with the same situation and only men involved. Leaders have problems giving them dangerous assignments, fellow soldiers will help them first if wounded even if a man is hurt far worse etc. And lets face, relationships WILL happen, jealousy will interfere with the normal team dynamic, etc.
Do I think this should keep women from combat units? No. But the units should be women only. New units would need to be formed and trained, but in my opinion this is the only way it should happen at this particular time.
Maybe after peoples mindsets have changed a bit we can integrate the units, but for now it WILL interfere with the combat effectiveness of the units, and anything that does that costs lives.
Although politicians have treated the military as a social proving ground for years, it should not be one. Combat units are there to fight when needed and anything that interferes with that capability should be tossed out, period.

2) Anyone that has spent any time in the military knows that despite the best of intentions of most people, fear of public outcry by senior officers often causes standards to be overlooked to reach goals. If congress comes out and tells the Army “you will have 10% women in that combat unit by 06”, trust me they will make sure they meet that number whether or not the women that apply meet the standards or not. That is not to say there are not women who could meet the standard, it is saying that whether those that apply can meet the standards or not, they will be passed to meet the number required.
I’ve seen this repeatedly over the years, with men, and with women in the military. Lower ranking officers will do whatever is required to make those above them happy, ethical or not. It hurts military readiness, but their careers depends on their superiors evaluations. Most of the best officers I have served with over the years have got out of the military because they could not bring themselves to go along with this.

So although on paper it looks fine to allow women in combat units as long as they “meet the standards”, the reality of doing so is much different. As I said, I believe women should be allowed in combat units if they wish and are physically capable, but for the time being there should not be Co-ed combat untis.

On a separate note I agree with some of the above posters on standards for units: They should be universal for everyone doing a particular job. Currently the Army grades PT tests by age and sex, which is ridiculous. Do you need to be less physically capable if you are older, or female? No. I would like to see the system changed to have one base fitness test for everyone in the Army, along with job specific physical test for each job.

[Michael Ernest Estrada]

Hello Jack, Great post my brother. I agree with you. Crossfit in afghanistan at 8,000 feet, it puts a new twist on it. I have completed my 4th crossfit workout up here and it will kick your butt.I will de elizabeth today and cant wait. I almost met pukie the other day, LOL.See you soon.}