Some thoughts on CF and my fitness goals - Page 2

Paul Theodorescu · 11-04-2005, 02:25 PM

Interesting insights. I think too much emphasis in Crossfit has been placed on being exhausted, puking, rhabdo, etc. It's still a great program and it'll likely get better as more people experiment with it.

Neill S. Occhiogrosso · 11-04-2005, 03:55 PM

Rob made a great point, and I won't do much but reiterate it here. Is the same training that prepares soldiers for hostile conditions optimal for people pursuing wellness / fitness in the long term? It seems that we've taken this for granted.

Dan MacDougald · 11-04-2005, 05:37 PM

John,

I have not been doing the WODs nearly as long as you have, but my experience is that older folks, I'm 57, need more rest between exercise bouts, and that sticking to the 3 days on 1 day off, trying to complete the WODs, is not something that I can do for very long without taking some recovery time. That you did it for a year is a testament to your will. For myself I'm thinking of trying 2 days on 1 day off.

As for rugby, you are correct that very few 1st class athletes play rugby in America. There's no money in it in the USA. Rugby gets the second tier guys, and some of them do disparage the game of football and football players. They are wrong to disparage the players, as you are wrong to disparage the game of rugby. But it's not universally true that only 2nd or lower tier athletes play rugby in America. I've played rugby with and against guys who played Div 1 football, some who did time in the NFL, and of course they stick with football as long as they can because of the money, the adoration and other considerations, but the game they played for love is rugby. In other countries, rugby does draw 1st tier athletes. In 1995 the Dallas Cowboys offered a New Zealand rugby player named Jonah Lomu a $2M contract even though he had never played football. He stood 6'5" tall, weighed 265 lbs, was evasive, powerful, and ran the 100m in 11 seconds. An absolute force of nature he was. He turned them down. Rugby went professional in 1995 and the standards of the athletes at the top level are now equal to the NFL.
As for which is the better game, I'm biased, but I can no longer stand to watch football unless I can TIVO it and zip through the 3.5 hours of commercials & dead time in a typical broadcast.

11-04-2005, 07:07 PM

I would be extremely amazed at any athlete that was able to even come near the top crossfitters with no crossfit background. I don't care how strong, enduring, whatever they are. If you don't believe me, ask Steve Cotter the champion kettlebeller/martial artist, Robb Wolf the elite powerlifter, or Josh Everett, with his near double bodyweight clean and jerk, all of whom were extremely powerful before they started crossfit, and all of whom were crushed by the workouts when they first started.

Brian Mulvaney · 11-04-2005, 07:54 PM

John,

I don't know you other than from your postings--which I thoroughly enjoy. I'm just wondering if the all or nothing nature of the Irishman isn't a factor here. You strike me as a man whose amplification knob goes a couple of levels higher than the norm. Frequent sickness and injury suggest to me that you overdid it on the training and that the diet may have been sub-optimal. Nowhere is it written that you must perform the WOD as Rxed. To the extent that there are any CrossFit mantras, "consistency before intensity" is at the top of the list. And the accuracy of the diet does make a difference in recovery and performance.

Dosage matters. How do you know you got yours right?

Keep us posted on the ongoing experiment called John Walsh. It's all part of the black box.

Brian

Ross Hunt · 11-04-2005, 09:06 PM

Very interesting post and replies.

Travis,

Despite my best culinary efforts, I wasn't able to break even while doing the WOD as Rx'ed; I lost weight. I doubt that any one would question the possibility of gaining muscle on the WOD, but the regular puker workouts keep the metabolism running so high that I had to eat a LOT to break even. Also, I gained very little limit strength during my time on the WOD. This surprised me, because my limit strength was not impressive to begin with and I put a great deal of effort into the Max Lift WODs and a reasonable amount of supplementary training.

I haven't experienced the any of the injury/overtraining issues that John mentioned (again, I'm much younger), and I don't actually doubt the utility of going balls to wall regularly with high volume, at least for several months at a time, but I feel like I'm obliged to pay my dues with respect to limit strength and at least some muscle gain before I can reap the benefits of a pure CrossFit program. Hence, Coach Burgener's WOD.

Jonathan Kessler · 11-04-2005, 10:09 PM

John,
Very interesting stuff.
As others have noted, glad to see you're finding what works for you.
At age 44, and trying to train consistently in BJJ and Escrima, I don't do the WOD consistently. I've never done 3 on 1 off, with BJJ it just would wipe me out. I do 1-3 WODs per week, plus 2 BJJ sessions (which are pretty WOD-like in their intensity and effect on my body).
And I find myself, due to low-grade injuries, taking a week or two at a time to train at much lower intensity. That has been working for me.
I have had those weeks, though, where by mid-week I feel like I'm something the cat dragged in - through the mud. Completely wiped out. I am learning to lighten up and take an unscheduled rest or active recovery day when that hits, and overall I seem to be doing much better.
I haven't experienced either the loss of strength or the increased sickness that you have. Maybe from not pushing as hard as you did?
Dunno. Very interesting thread.

JK

Jonathan Kessler · 11-04-2005, 10:14 PM

One other thought - your first statement, "Crossfit is a great fitness program, especially if you are a young competitive athlete."
From what I've seen out here, Crossfit is a great fitness program, especially if your are senior, or out of shape, or have been sedentary.
Not "the WOD as prescribed", but "CrossFit" - "constantly varied, if not randomized, functional movements". Yeah, I know, "high intensity" is in there, too, and is important, but what that means will necessarily vary with the individual.
A lot of people think "CrossFit" == "the WOD". Maybe it does. To me, at least, it doesn't. Or at least, not necessarily.
As Gerswin put it in Porgy and Bess,
"It ain't necessarily so..."
With respect,
JK

11-04-2005, 10:35 PM

john- "Travis, so what if my statements appear negative? This isn’t about being nice."

i think you misinterpret me. i only meant that i found it strange that you would speak postivily about a program that you saw to yeild negative results.

to be completely honest i found your post quite interesting. it was a nice 'change' from the 'kool aid' crowd.

i've had a few people come up to me in the gym and say things like 'guy, your gonna destroy your joints doin a hundred so-n-so" even a sports doctor i went to once looked at me crooked when i told him some of my routines.
nothing is perfect so it's good to here some things from the 'otherside of the coin,' or what not.
i only wanted to state so far my experience has been positive- despite my girlfriend thinking it will all end in multi-joint arthritis...

ross- i have no fat. i mean that. i'm shy of six feet was 140lbs when i originally started seriously training five years ago. put on 10, and eventually maxed at 155lbs. crossfit let me hit 160. as mentioned i think it all has to do with more weight. hspu instead of reg pushups for example. and i do not doubt that some will lose muscle/strength depending on previous training and what not.

cheers,
t.

(Message edited by street on November 04, 2005)

Rob McBee · 11-04-2005, 11:22 PM

Scale the WOD to your level. Don't worry about what the 'gods' are doing.

If you're goals include increasing loads on Oly lifts and powerlifting then design your training program based on that. I get no sense from experience and readings that Crossfit is about specifically creating Oly/Powerlifters any more than its about specifically creating runners.

I don't see a comparison of CF trainees to pro athletes as being very significant. What is the percentage of 'pros' to the general population? Pros are statistical outliers. A more revealing comparison is CF'ers to the general population. I'm referring to a general pop. meaning the average US citizen with their t.v. watching and poor diet, packing themselves into 'big box' gyms or doing the jogging/cycling/weekend triathlon-thing. Which group gets crushed on any comparitive level of fitness?

11-04-2005, 07:07 PM	#14
Russ Greene Profile: Posts: n/a	I would be extremely amazed at any athlete that was able to even come near the top crossfitters with no crossfit background. I don't care how strong, enduring, whatever they are. If you don't believe me, ask Steve Cotter the champion kettlebeller/martial artist, Robb Wolf the elite powerlifter, or Josh Everett, with his near double bodyweight clean and jerk, all of whom were extremely powerful before they started crossfit, and all of whom were crushed by the workouts when they first started.
Russ Greene Profile: Posts: n/a

11-04-2005, 10:35 PM	#19
Travis Hall Profile: Posts: n/a	john- "Travis, so what if my statements appear negative? This isn’t about being nice." i think you misinterpret me. i only meant that i found it strange that you would speak postivily about a program that you saw to yeild negative results. to be completely honest i found your post quite interesting. it was a nice 'change' from the 'kool aid' crowd. i've had a few people come up to me in the gym and say things like 'guy, your gonna destroy your joints doin a hundred so-n-so" even a sports doctor i went to once looked at me crooked when i told him some of my routines. nothing is perfect so it's good to here some things from the 'otherside of the coin,' or what not. i only wanted to state so far my experience has been positive- despite my girlfriend thinking it will all end in multi-joint arthritis... ross- i have no fat. i mean that. i'm shy of six feet was 140lbs when i originally started seriously training five years ago. put on 10, and eventually maxed at 155lbs. crossfit let me hit 160. as mentioned i think it all has to do with more weight. hspu instead of reg pushups for example. and i do not doubt that some will lose muscle/strength depending on previous training and what not. cheers, t. (Message edited by street on November 04, 2005)
Travis Hall Profile: Posts: n/a

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11-04-2005, 02:25 PM	#11
Paul Theodorescu Member Profile: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Quebec Quebec Posts: 124	Interesting insights. I think too much emphasis in Crossfit has been placed on being exhausted, puking, rhabdo, etc. It's still a great program and it'll likely get better as more people experiment with it.

11-04-2005, 03:55 PM	#12
Neill S. Occhiogrosso Member Profile: Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Philadelphia PA Posts: 177	Rob made a great point, and I won't do much but reiterate it here. Is the same training that prepares soldiers for hostile conditions optimal for people pursuing wellness / fitness in the long term? It seems that we've taken this for granted.

11-04-2005, 05:37 PM	#13
Dan MacDougald CrossFit Staff Profile: Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Atlanta GA Posts: 251	John, I have not been doing the WODs nearly as long as you have, but my experience is that older folks, I'm 57, need more rest between exercise bouts, and that sticking to the 3 days on 1 day off, trying to complete the WODs, is not something that I can do for very long without taking some recovery time. That you did it for a year is a testament to your will. For myself I'm thinking of trying 2 days on 1 day off. As for rugby, you are correct that very few 1st class athletes play rugby in America. There's no money in it in the USA. Rugby gets the second tier guys, and some of them do disparage the game of football and football players. They are wrong to disparage the players, as you are wrong to disparage the game of rugby. But it's not universally true that only 2nd or lower tier athletes play rugby in America. I've played rugby with and against guys who played Div 1 football, some who did time in the NFL, and of course they stick with football as long as they can because of the money, the adoration and other considerations, but the game they played for love is rugby. In other countries, rugby does draw 1st tier athletes. In 1995 the Dallas Cowboys offered a New Zealand rugby player named Jonah Lomu a $2M contract even though he had never played football. He stood 6'5" tall, weighed 265 lbs, was evasive, powerful, and ran the 100m in 11 seconds. An absolute force of nature he was. He turned them down. Rugby went professional in 1995 and the standards of the athletes at the top level are now equal to the NFL. As for which is the better game, I'm biased, but I can no longer stand to watch football unless I can TIVO it and zip through the 3.5 hours of commercials & dead time in a typical broadcast.

11-04-2005, 07:54 PM	#15
Brian Mulvaney CrossFit Staff Profile: Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Kirkland WA Posts: 461	John, I don't know you other than from your postings--which I thoroughly enjoy. I'm just wondering if the all or nothing nature of the Irishman isn't a factor here. You strike me as a man whose amplification knob goes a couple of levels higher than the norm. Frequent sickness and injury suggest to me that you overdid it on the training and that the diet may have been sub-optimal. Nowhere is it written that you must perform the WOD as Rxed. To the extent that there are any CrossFit mantras, "consistency before intensity" is at the top of the list. And the accuracy of the diet does make a difference in recovery and performance. Dosage matters. How do you know you got yours right? Keep us posted on the ongoing experiment called John Walsh. It's all part of the black box. Brian

11-04-2005, 09:06 PM	#16
Ross Hunt Member Profile: Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Annapolis MD Posts: 838	Very interesting post and replies. Travis, Despite my best culinary efforts, I wasn't able to break even while doing the WOD as Rx'ed; I lost weight. I doubt that any one would question the possibility of gaining muscle on the WOD, but the regular puker workouts keep the metabolism running so high that I had to eat a LOT to break even. Also, I gained very little limit strength during my time on the WOD. This surprised me, because my limit strength was not impressive to begin with and I put a great deal of effort into the Max Lift WODs and a reasonable amount of supplementary training. I haven't experienced the any of the injury/overtraining issues that John mentioned (again, I'm much younger), and I don't actually doubt the utility of going balls to wall regularly with high volume, at least for several months at a time, but I feel like I'm obliged to pay my dues with respect to limit strength and at least some muscle gain before I can reap the benefits of a pure CrossFit program. Hence, Coach Burgener's WOD.

11-04-2005, 10:09 PM	#17
Jonathan Kessler Member Profile: Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Boulder Creek CA Posts: 251	John, Very interesting stuff. As others have noted, glad to see you're finding what works for you. At age 44, and trying to train consistently in BJJ and Escrima, I don't do the WOD consistently. I've never done 3 on 1 off, with BJJ it just would wipe me out. I do 1-3 WODs per week, plus 2 BJJ sessions (which are pretty WOD-like in their intensity and effect on my body). And I find myself, due to low-grade injuries, taking a week or two at a time to train at much lower intensity. That has been working for me. I have had those weeks, though, where by mid-week I feel like I'm something the cat dragged in - through the mud. Completely wiped out. I am learning to lighten up and take an unscheduled rest or active recovery day when that hits, and overall I seem to be doing much better. I haven't experienced either the loss of strength or the increased sickness that you have. Maybe from not pushing as hard as you did? Dunno. Very interesting thread. JK

11-04-2005, 10:14 PM	#18
Jonathan Kessler Member Profile: Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Boulder Creek CA Posts: 251	One other thought - your first statement, "Crossfit is a great fitness program, especially if you are a young competitive athlete." From what I've seen out here, Crossfit is a great fitness program, especially if your are senior, or out of shape, or have been sedentary. Not "the WOD as prescribed", but "CrossFit" - "constantly varied, if not randomized, functional movements". Yeah, I know, "high intensity" is in there, too, and is important, but what that means will necessarily vary with the individual. A lot of people think "CrossFit" == "the WOD". Maybe it does. To me, at least, it doesn't. Or at least, not necessarily. As Gerswin put it in Porgy and Bess, "It ain't necessarily so..." With respect, JK

11-04-2005, 11:22 PM	#20
Rob McBee Affiliate Profile: Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Portland OR Posts: 390	Scale the WOD to your level. Don't worry about what the 'gods' are doing. If you're goals include increasing loads on Oly lifts and powerlifting then design your training program based on that. I get no sense from experience and readings that Crossfit is about specifically creating Oly/Powerlifters any more than its about specifically creating runners. I don't see a comparison of CF trainees to pro athletes as being very significant. What is the percentage of 'pros' to the general population? Pros are statistical outliers. A more revealing comparison is CF'ers to the general population. I'm referring to a general pop. meaning the average US citizen with their t.v. watching and poor diet, packing themselves into 'big box' gyms or doing the jogging/cycling/weekend triathlon-thing. Which group gets crushed on any comparitive level of fitness?