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Dan John · 08-07-2004, 05:20 PM

I had a meet today in the O lifts: 242 Snatch and 308 Clean and Jerk, without any traditional training. I talked with Robb Wolf about a week ago and I trusted our discussion about doing the WOD (where I can...some of things I adapt for my discus throwing needs) and doing light O lifts for tech. I didn't go above 165 pounds in training on the Clean and Jerk and only 95 in the snatch for easy reps.

I used to be rather good at the O lifts. Two years ago (and change) I blew my left wrist into 8 pieces at a meet (I still clean and jerked)and I have never "come around." It gets a little better every day; at least, I'm not pulling my forearms muscles once a month.

Nice to be O lifting again. I have a track meet this week, a Highland Game the week after.

Crossfit for bulkers, I guess.

Ryan Atkins · 08-07-2004, 09:43 PM

Hi Dan,

I'm glad you brought this up. Over the past few weeks I've been contemplating the idea of giving more focus to O-lift technique as my knee continues to heal.

I've decided to reintroduce your version of Dave Turner's program into my workouts (or, more specifically, my warm-ups). Before doing 'Diane' this morning, I did 8 doubles of the snatch w/95# and 8 singles of the C&J w/135#. I followed this up with some presses to handstands and landings, along with some ring dips and pull-ups. Tomorrow I'll start with the front squats and so on. As my body adapts, I'm planning on getting out in the garage for an additional set or two of whatever exercise(s) I did earlier in the day (using really light weights, of course).

When I first started Crossfit, I used the program immediately AFTER the WOD. Brian Hand and others have made the point that, when learning skill manuevers, practicing them BEFORE intense S&C work may prove more beneficial.

I was just wondering how you incorporated your O-lift training in with your WOD/throwing training (i.e. warm-up, done at different time during the day, other?). Also, when using the program you've shared with us, what day would be the best place to incorporate overhead squats (to me, days 2,3 and 4 all look equally viable)?

Thanks for any help. Best wishes on your continuing recovery.

Ryan

Robert Wolf · 08-08-2004, 02:12 AM

I am still confused and delighted by the progress I make in all these areas. I suspect taking much of the core philosophy one finds in CrossFit and tailoring it appropriately...this should produce elite levels of strength/power. I'm not sure but it is certainly fun tinkering with all this!

Ryan-

John Frankl mentioned reading Dan Gabbles book in which it was recomended to perform light, technical work in the beginning of training and then finish off with concerted conditioning. This makes a lot of sense to me on a variety of levels. Ones neurological reserves are fully available in the beginning to imprint beneficial motor programs and one is thouroughly warmed up when the harder conditioning efforts are at hand.

Perhaps ideally one would seperate the skill and conditioning sessions to minimize the neurological overlap but in most situations this is not practical to implement. Additionally seperating these training sessions may be only slightly more beneficial in the long run. Perhaps worth it for the olympic/professional athlete but a waste of effort for most.
Robb

Larry Lindenman · 08-08-2004, 06:05 AM

Congrats Dan, and great article on T-Nation. I love the comments from readers: "I just came off the boulder shoulder routine and I like the idea of your article but I have a few questions: Can I use DB lateral raises or cable raises (I don't want my boulders... I mean shoulders to shrink). Could I substitute ez bar curls for the snatch, that snatch thing doesn't work the pipes. And lastly, what tempo should I use when doing the clean and jerk. Rest period timing and a personal program from you would also be helpful. Respond immediately." (Not an actual quote but similar in spirit to actual responses)
Everyone, appreciate the crossfit message board, it's a rare thing.

Michael Rutherford · 08-08-2004, 06:51 AM

Early in July my son and I participated in our first Olympic lifting meet. He gets to practice the clean about 20 minutes per week with high school football conditioning and four weeks before the meet I showed him a few points with the snatch. He is farm boy strong at 210 lbs. At the meet he snatched 225 (a state record for 17 year olds) and his c&j was 303. Most of his workouts are the standard high school conditioning junk so he is not a specialist. In fact his program at school did not include the jerk.

In my case, I have been more a disciple of the WOD but when we decided to drive out to this meet I knew I needed to practice the movements so as not to embarrass the family. I started working a little about 6 weeks before the meet. I recalled a posting here from Dan about integrating o-lifting into the workout of the day so taking some of what he said I rotated snatches and clean and jerks into my workout of the day program as follows

DAY 1 Warm-up/WOD/snatch 8setsx2reps
DAY 2 Warm-up/WOD/c&j 10setsx1rep
DAY 3 Warm-up/WOD/REST
DAY 4 OFF

I usually rested around 60-90 seconds between sets. I rotated the load of my projected maxes 70/75/80 %. I never squatted unless written into the WOD.

I weighed right on 90kg (198) at the meet and hit a 97.5kg (215) snatch (my personal respectability stick has been bodyweight snatch) and my c&j was 130kg (286). I went 6 for six. Using all those age and weight adjusted formulas I finished 2nd overall 2kg out of first.

Reflecting on the experience I never left a workout feeling totally fried or near the edge. Most all the sessions were manageable. I really liked the recipe. I did a couple of fun runs and averaged right on 7:00/mile. My conditioning was CrossFit with the ability to be respectable in a specialist world. Yesterday I was called by some of the college kids who are home to play water basketball. They play college sports so they aren’t the typical beer drinking frat boys. Well, most of them. These games are intense and last an hour or more resembling a cross of rugby, basketball and water polo. I considered the invitation the ultimate conditioning compliment.

I didn’t follow the tech work first rule and found being extra warmed up helped me feel more grooved and alert. Maybe for my next meet I’ll rotated performing this o-lift work before the WOD.

Lincoln Brigham · 08-09-2004, 08:08 AM

Good job Danny. That's a better total than when you won the 2001 National Masters.

Dan John · 08-09-2004, 08:32 AM

Hey Lincoln!

Part of the reason I was so happy with that Nationals win is because everything had been going wrong for the past 36 hours. It was a classic example of bad timing, poor planning, bad choices (hotel, flight, work, etc...), bad attempt choices, blah, blah, blah, and I had one...one (!)...chance to make the whole meet worth it, the 145 Clean and Jerk. I think the other guys forgot I was even lifting, if you remember...

That two weeks, the Nationals and then blowing my wrist apart the following weekend at the State meet, put me on a path that I never really thought about. I appreciate a lot more about life and lifting and training than I did back then. Of course, when they do these wrist surgeries they put you on a "cross" with the right arm looking like the Mad Chemist side and the left arm strapped down with four different kinds of metal...it is an image that you don't like to go to sleep with!

So, it was nice getting over 300 again. Marc Cardinal told me that my 140 (308) looked like a normal opener. It actually felt good to stand up with a weight that bent a little again, too.

Steve Shafley · 08-09-2004, 10:42 AM

I just had my first OL meet this last weekend. I PSed 90kg and PC&Jed 115kg at a 122kg bodyweight. I need to hone my full lifts now. I only prepared for this meet for about 6 weeks, and it's been a very stressful time for me due to my job being eliminated. I was pleased with the results, but am eager to get better and lift heavier.

Lincoln Brigham · 08-09-2004, 03:02 PM

Steve... and you went 5-for-6. You'll always lift heavier than your first meet, but going 5-for-6 in your first meet is an accomplishment you can keep forever.

Danny, I remember there was at least one more lift after you finished. If he makes it he wins, if he misses then you win... A real nail-biter... Next time, I'll coach YOU. I promise you'll go 4-for-6 or better or I buy the Scotch!

Ben Jackson · 08-09-2004, 04:36 PM

Dan,
Congrats on the O'lifting meet. I am impressed with your success in the discus. How often do you throw now? How often do you throw hard? I am kinda starting to miss it. I'm sure that I'd be be looking pretty sorry now days. Do you ever come in contact with a guy by the name of Greg Hart at any of your meets? I noticed that he was listed on the masters ranking list post from your web site. He was still living and training in Bloomington when I was throwing at Indiana U. At the time he was training with a guy named John Schulte (threw the disc 216' in high school) and was being coached by John Smith (I believe he still coaches throws for U. of Ohio and is wed to Connie Price Smith). Did ya ever throw agianst Randy Heisler (coached me at IU)? He would talk about throwing against Powel; he told us about how he beat Powel in one of his meets.

Ben

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08-07-2004, 05:20 PM	#1
Dan John Departed Profile: Join Date: Dec 1969 Posts: 365	I had a meet today in the O lifts: 242 Snatch and 308 Clean and Jerk, without any traditional training. I talked with Robb Wolf about a week ago and I trusted our discussion about doing the WOD (where I can...some of things I adapt for my discus throwing needs) and doing light O lifts for tech. I didn't go above 165 pounds in training on the Clean and Jerk and only 95 in the snatch for easy reps. I used to be rather good at the O lifts. Two years ago (and change) I blew my left wrist into 8 pieces at a meet (I still clean and jerked)and I have never "come around." It gets a little better every day; at least, I'm not pulling my forearms muscles once a month. Nice to be O lifting again. I have a track meet this week, a Highland Game the week after. Crossfit for bulkers, I guess.

08-07-2004, 09:43 PM	#2
Ryan Atkins Member Profile: Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Racine WI Posts: 925	Hi Dan, I'm glad you brought this up. Over the past few weeks I've been contemplating the idea of giving more focus to O-lift technique as my knee continues to heal. I've decided to reintroduce your version of Dave Turner's program into my workouts (or, more specifically, my warm-ups). Before doing 'Diane' this morning, I did 8 doubles of the snatch w/95# and 8 singles of the C&J w/135#. I followed this up with some presses to handstands and landings, along with some ring dips and pull-ups. Tomorrow I'll start with the front squats and so on. As my body adapts, I'm planning on getting out in the garage for an additional set or two of whatever exercise(s) I did earlier in the day (using really light weights, of course). When I first started Crossfit, I used the program immediately AFTER the WOD. Brian Hand and others have made the point that, when learning skill manuevers, practicing them BEFORE intense S&C work may prove more beneficial. I was just wondering how you incorporated your O-lift training in with your WOD/throwing training (i.e. warm-up, done at different time during the day, other?). Also, when using the program you've shared with us, what day would be the best place to incorporate overhead squats (to me, days 2,3 and 4 all look equally viable)? Thanks for any help. Best wishes on your continuing recovery. Ryan

08-08-2004, 02:12 AM	#3
Robert Wolf Member Profile: Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Chico CA Posts: 2,670	I am still confused and delighted by the progress I make in all these areas. I suspect taking much of the core philosophy one finds in CrossFit and tailoring it appropriately...this should produce elite levels of strength/power. I'm not sure but it is certainly fun tinkering with all this! Ryan- John Frankl mentioned reading Dan Gabbles book in which it was recomended to perform light, technical work in the beginning of training and then finish off with concerted conditioning. This makes a lot of sense to me on a variety of levels. Ones neurological reserves are fully available in the beginning to imprint beneficial motor programs and one is thouroughly warmed up when the harder conditioning efforts are at hand. Perhaps ideally one would seperate the skill and conditioning sessions to minimize the neurological overlap but in most situations this is not practical to implement. Additionally seperating these training sessions may be only slightly more beneficial in the long run. Perhaps worth it for the olympic/professional athlete but a waste of effort for most. Robb

08-08-2004, 06:05 AM	#4
Larry Lindenman Affiliate Profile: Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Chicago Illinois Posts: 2,769	Congrats Dan, and great article on T-Nation. I love the comments from readers: "I just came off the boulder shoulder routine and I like the idea of your article but I have a few questions: Can I use DB lateral raises or cable raises (I don't want my boulders... I mean shoulders to shrink). Could I substitute ez bar curls for the snatch, that snatch thing doesn't work the pipes. And lastly, what tempo should I use when doing the clean and jerk. Rest period timing and a personal program from you would also be helpful. Respond immediately." (Not an actual quote but similar in spirit to actual responses) Everyone, appreciate the crossfit message board, it's a rare thing.

08-08-2004, 06:51 AM	#5
Michael Rutherford Affiliate Profile: Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Leawood Kansas Posts: 200	Early in July my son and I participated in our first Olympic lifting meet. He gets to practice the clean about 20 minutes per week with high school football conditioning and four weeks before the meet I showed him a few points with the snatch. He is farm boy strong at 210 lbs. At the meet he snatched 225 (a state record for 17 year olds) and his c&j was 303. Most of his workouts are the standard high school conditioning junk so he is not a specialist. In fact his program at school did not include the jerk. In my case, I have been more a disciple of the WOD but when we decided to drive out to this meet I knew I needed to practice the movements so as not to embarrass the family. I started working a little about 6 weeks before the meet. I recalled a posting here from Dan about integrating o-lifting into the workout of the day so taking some of what he said I rotated snatches and clean and jerks into my workout of the day program as follows DAY 1 Warm-up/WOD/snatch 8setsx2reps DAY 2 Warm-up/WOD/c&j 10setsx1rep DAY 3 Warm-up/WOD/REST DAY 4 OFF I usually rested around 60-90 seconds between sets. I rotated the load of my projected maxes 70/75/80 %. I never squatted unless written into the WOD. I weighed right on 90kg (198) at the meet and hit a 97.5kg (215) snatch (my personal respectability stick has been bodyweight snatch) and my c&j was 130kg (286). I went 6 for six. Using all those age and weight adjusted formulas I finished 2nd overall 2kg out of first. Reflecting on the experience I never left a workout feeling totally fried or near the edge. Most all the sessions were manageable. I really liked the recipe. I did a couple of fun runs and averaged right on 7:00/mile. My conditioning was CrossFit with the ability to be respectable in a specialist world. Yesterday I was called by some of the college kids who are home to play water basketball. They play college sports so they aren’t the typical beer drinking frat boys. Well, most of them. These games are intense and last an hour or more resembling a cross of rugby, basketball and water polo. I considered the invitation the ultimate conditioning compliment. I didn’t follow the tech work first rule and found being extra warmed up helped me feel more grooved and alert. Maybe for my next meet I’ll rotated performing this o-lift work before the WOD.

08-09-2004, 08:08 AM	#6
Lincoln Brigham Member Profile: Join Date: May 2003 Location: Kirkland WA Posts: 3,982	Good job Danny. That's a better total than when you won the 2001 National Masters.

08-09-2004, 08:32 AM	#7
Dan John Departed Profile: Join Date: Dec 1969 Posts: 365	Hey Lincoln! Part of the reason I was so happy with that Nationals win is because everything had been going wrong for the past 36 hours. It was a classic example of bad timing, poor planning, bad choices (hotel, flight, work, etc...), bad attempt choices, blah, blah, blah, and I had one...one (!)...chance to make the whole meet worth it, the 145 Clean and Jerk. I think the other guys forgot I was even lifting, if you remember... That two weeks, the Nationals and then blowing my wrist apart the following weekend at the State meet, put me on a path that I never really thought about. I appreciate a lot more about life and lifting and training than I did back then. Of course, when they do these wrist surgeries they put you on a "cross" with the right arm looking like the Mad Chemist side and the left arm strapped down with four different kinds of metal...it is an image that you don't like to go to sleep with! So, it was nice getting over 300 again. Marc Cardinal told me that my 140 (308) looked like a normal opener. It actually felt good to stand up with a weight that bent a little again, too.

08-09-2004, 10:42 AM	#8
Steve Shafley Banned Profile: Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Saginaw MI Posts: 508	I just had my first OL meet this last weekend. I PSed 90kg and PC&Jed 115kg at a 122kg bodyweight. I need to hone my full lifts now. I only prepared for this meet for about 6 weeks, and it's been a very stressful time for me due to my job being eliminated. I was pleased with the results, but am eager to get better and lift heavier.

08-09-2004, 03:02 PM	#9
Lincoln Brigham Member Profile: Join Date: May 2003 Location: Kirkland WA Posts: 3,982	Steve... and you went 5-for-6. You'll always lift heavier than your first meet, but going 5-for-6 in your first meet is an accomplishment you can keep forever. Danny, I remember there was at least one more lift after you finished. If he makes it he wins, if he misses then you win... A real nail-biter... Next time, I'll coach YOU. I promise you'll go 4-for-6 or better or I buy the Scotch!

08-09-2004, 04:36 PM	#10
Ben Jackson Member Profile: Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Georgetown IN Posts: 64	Dan, Congrats on the O'lifting meet. I am impressed with your success in the discus. How often do you throw now? How often do you throw hard? I am kinda starting to miss it. I'm sure that I'd be be looking pretty sorry now days. Do you ever come in contact with a guy by the name of Greg Hart at any of your meets? I noticed that he was listed on the masters ranking list post from your web site. He was still living and training in Bloomington when I was throwing at Indiana U. At the time he was training with a guy named John Schulte (threw the disc 216' in high school) and was being coached by John Smith (I believe he still coaches throws for U. of Ohio and is wed to Connie Price Smith). Did ya ever throw agianst Randy Heisler (coached me at IU)? He would talk about throwing against Powel; he told us about how he beat Powel in one of his meets. Ben