CrossFit Discussion Board  

Go Back   CrossFit Discussion Board > CrossFit Forum > Fitness
CrossFit Home Forum Site Rules CrossFit FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 11-02-2007, 06:09 PM   #1
Tim Donahey
Member Tim Donahey is offline
 
Tim Donahey's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Columbus  Ohio
Posts: 911
Dynamic Effort, Max Effort, Volume and Constructing a Black Box for Strength & Power

Dynamic Effort, Max Effort, Volume and Constructing a Black Box for Strength and Power Training

After reviewing ME Black Box for the umpteenth time I wanted to discuss some of the possibilities behind programming a Black Box routine. If you haven't yet read the article, I highly encourage you to. I'm not going to lay out the entire model so you'll need to read it if you care to follow along. It can be found, in its' entirity, here (WFS): http://www.performancemenu.com/zen/i...products_id=61

In his article, Max Effort Black Box, Micheal Rutherford offers a basic template of repsXsets:

1st Cycle: 5-5-5-3-3-3
2nd Cycle: 3-3-3-1-1-1
3rd Cycle and Up: Repeat Cycle 2 or use "The Prilepin Chart."


The Prilepin Chart

%1RM.............Reps per Set.........Optimal Reps..........Rep Range

55-65.................. 3-6.................... 24 .................. 18-30

70-75.................. 3-6.....................18 .................. 12-24

80-85 ................. 2-4 ....................15....................10-20

90+ .................... 1-2 .................... 7 ................... 4-10


Basically what The 'P' Chart details is that to get a positive training effect (ie. 1RM increase) for power (weight/time, or speed) there are optimal ranges of intensity (% of 1RM) to volume (setsXreps) that should be employed. You can read more about The 'P' Chart here (wfs): http://elitefts.com/documents/prilepins_chart.htm

For example a bar loaded at 90-100% of 1RM can be lifted for maximal speed, optimally, at 7 total repititions of 1-2 reps/set (ie. 1-1-1-1-1-1-1) and a bar loaded at 55-65% of 1RM can be lifted at maximal speed, optimally, at 24 total repititions of 3-6 reps/set (ie. 4-4-4-4-4-4) without form breaking down.

This was based on experiments done by Russian sports scientists on their Olympic Weightlifters, and since speed isn't usually a consideration for "The Slow Lifts" (Squat, Press, Bench Press, Shoulder Press, and Deadlift), for the moment we'll restrict their findings to the Olympic lifts and their variants (Clean, Snatch, Jerk, Push Press, Power Movements), or Dynamic Efforts (DE). According to Dave Tate, “Dynamic effort is defined as lifting a non-maximal load with the greatest speed possible.”

So, if you've already tested your 1RM, one possibility for organizing your Black Box for Oly lifts (ala Micheal Rutherford's) could be:

1st cycle: 55-65% or 70-75%/1RM: 5-5-5-3-3-3 (24 Reps)
2nd cycle: 80-85%/1RM: 3-3-3-1-1-1 (12 Reps)
3rd cycle: 90+%/1RM: 1-1-1-1-1-1-1 (4-10 Reps, Ramping to new PR)
4th Cycle and Up: ???

Using this template you can anticipate hitting your PR's in the 3rd cycle.

Now let's talk about the "Slow Lifts" and Max Effort (ME). For ME you would use whatever percentage allows you to perform the movement at a steady pace at high intensity (80+%). Here are two charts that detail ranges of intensity to volume for ME.

From Mel Siff's, Supertraining (WFS):
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/attach...0&d=1160859106

From Mark Rippetoe's, Starting Strength (WFS):
http://www.****************.com/files/sample200.pdf

For strength training, both models advocate working in the 80-100% intensity threshold at 1-5 repititions per set. There's a great volume of info you could use here to program the ME (and/or DE) portion of your regimen. I recommend not overthinking this and doing 3-5 Sets in the 5 rep range, and leaving it to the Crossfit Total for testing new 1 rep maxes.

But can you use DE with the Slow Lifts? Yes! A popular way of doing this is to go slow on the eccentric portion of the movement (the "down" part) and explode under the bar on the concentric portion (the "up" part).
Here's one possibility of incorporating DE into the Slow Lifts based on Mark Rippetoe's "Texas Method":

1st cycle: 80%/1RM: 5-5-5-5-5 (Volume)
2nd cycle: 65%/1RM: 3-3-3-3-3-3-3-3 (DE, Speed)
3rd cycle: 90-95%/1RM: 3-3-3, + 100+%/1RM: 1-1-1 (ME, Intensity)

Now this periodization scheme would work very well for an Intermediate/Advanced lifter, but for the Novice/Beginner I would strictly stick with the 3x5 or 5x5 rep schemes for strength training since you'll be getting plenty of DE work with the Oly lifts.

To summarize, different training principles are implemented for Oly lifts vs. Slow lifts and you should incorporate both into your Black Box.

Now go get strong!
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-02-2007, 09:25 PM   #2
Peter Dell'Orto
Member Peter Dell'Orto is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Niigata-shi  Niigata-ken
Posts: 236
Re: Dynamic Effort, Max Effort, Volume and Constructing a Black Box for Strength & Po

Excellent post. One question, though - the Prilepin chart you have quoted here differs from the one posted at http://elitefts.com/documents/prilepins_chart.htm (wfs). Which one has the correct numbers, or is it a range?
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2007, 03:56 AM   #3
Jay Cohen
Member Jay Cohen is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Sharpsville  PA
Posts: 3,384
Re: Dynamic Effort, Max Effort, Volume and Constructing a Black Box for Strength & Po

Tim;

You are obviously drinking some serious good quality coffee. Great post, though I'll have to print and study!!

Off thread, while I'm still planning on coming down your way next Saturday, it'd be very convenient to pick up those bumpers that Matt is working on. Any chance you could see if Jim is at the Y next weekend(11/10) say around 10:30 ish.

Have a great Saturday
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2007, 04:01 AM   #4
Tim Donahey
Member Tim Donahey is offline
 
Tim Donahey's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Columbus  Ohio
Posts: 911
Re: Dynamic Effort, Max Effort, Volume and Constructing a Black Box for Strength & Po

Peter, the one linked differs slightly in the 90% range, and I'm not certain exactly why the elitefts table is as it is. I will say that most tables I have found reflect the one I posted above and that the ME Blackbox article specifically cites that same 90% range.

My guess is that the one from elitefts refers to the upper threshold of the 90% range.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2007, 05:49 AM   #5
Peter Dell'Orto
Member Peter Dell'Orto is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Niigata-shi  Niigata-ken
Posts: 236
Re: Dynamic Effort, Max Effort, Volume and Constructing a Black Box for Strength & Po

Tim, thanks for the additional information. Your interpretation of the table differences makes sense.

I will say one more thing - when I read your post, I thought "Jeez, that would have been a good CFJ article, but instead we get it all for free." It's a really good look at ME/DE within a crossfit program. I've been reading about DE for a while now, and thinking about how I can incorporate it. As a fighter, I need to do lots of power exercises as well as strength...so I like the idea of using my "ME" lifts for "DE" work to both work as power exercises and improve my ability to do ME work. Seems to be win/win, but how exactly to fit it in eluded me so far...your post gave me a lot to work with.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2007, 07:14 PM   #6
Tim Donahey
Member Tim Donahey is offline
 
Tim Donahey's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Columbus  Ohio
Posts: 911
Re: Dynamic Effort, Max Effort, Volume and Constructing a Black Box for Strength & Po

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Dell'Orto View Post
Tim, thanks for the additional information. Your interpretation of the table differences makes sense.

I will say one more thing - when I read your post, I thought "Jeez, that would have been a good CFJ article, but instead we get it all for free." It's a really good look at ME/DE within a crossfit program. I've been reading about DE for a while now, and thinking about how I can incorporate it. As a fighter, I need to do lots of power exercises as well as strength...so I like the idea of using my "ME" lifts for "DE" work to both work as power exercises and improve my ability to do ME work. Seems to be win/win, but how exactly to fit it in eluded me so far...your post gave me a lot to work with.
It's gratifying to hear that this you gave you some new tools to work with. Be sure to keep us updated with how you're using DE in your training.

There's literally infinite variations that could be applied to a Black Box template from what's offered here, so definately let us know what works and what doesn't. Good luck!
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2007, 07:52 PM   #7
Gant Grimes
Departed Gant Grimes is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jan 1970
 
Posts: 1,549
Re: Dynamic Effort, Max Effort, Volume and Constructing a Black Box for Strength & Po

Nice work, Tim. I've become horrendously weak and will start a new BB program soon. I'll report back.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2007, 08:28 PM   #8
Peter Dell'Orto
Member Peter Dell'Orto is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Niigata-shi  Niigata-ken
Posts: 236
Re: Dynamic Effort, Max Effort, Volume and Constructing a Black Box for Strength & Po

Tim, at the moment I'm getting ready for a fight, so I'm not doing the ME-style routine I was doing before (4 WODs + a ME full-body strength day a week). I'm doing just metcons and power exercises and lots of MMA training. But after my fight I want to try doing two strength days a week. A ME day and a DE day using your layout seems like it could be a good way to go.

When it gets closer to the time to work it out, I'll write up what I'm planning and post it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2007, 06:19 AM   #9
Lisa Quinn
Affiliate Lisa Quinn is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Fredericksburg  VA
Posts: 349
Re: Dynamic Effort, Max Effort, Volume and Constructing a Black Box for Strength & Po

Thanks Tim for some great reading. I am quite new to CF and am continually looking for information to read, apply, learn to improve all facets of my life. It'll take a while to digest it all~
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2007, 08:17 AM   #10
Dale F. Saran
CrossFit Staff Dale F. Saran is offline
 
Dale F. Saran's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Westerly  RI
Posts: 559
Re: Dynamic Effort, Max Effort, Volume and Constructing a Black Box for Strength & Po

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Dell'Orto View Post
I will say one more thing - when I read your post, I thought "Jeez, that would have been a good CFJ article, but instead we get it all for free."
As a follow up, I don't know if Carrie is soliciting articles, but I heard through the grapevine she might be. So, Tim, you might consider putting this information together and submitting it. I agree with Peter that it really would be a great Journal article. (Mods, stop me if I'm overstepping). And I know for a fact Coach and Lauren pay people to write their articles. If nothing else, maybe a free T-shirt?

Jes' my 2 cents, but I really think that is something you've done there.
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Starting Strength/Black Box James Riley Starting 1 10-27-2007 06:04 PM
Max Effort pullups Joshua Bird Exercises 9 10-23-2007 11:54 AM
Questions about Max Effort stuff Jason Lopez-Ota Exercises 16 02-15-2007 10:26 AM
Critical power/VO2 max/Maximum effort sustainability Joe Cloutier Fitness 3 12-04-2006 06:44 PM
Dynamic Effort Pullups Tyler Hass Exercises 6 04-12-2004 08:07 PM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:10 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
CrossFit is a registered trademark of CrossFit Inc.