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Old 09-21-2007, 05:37 AM   #1
Brandon Oto
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Once again on Grace, et al...

From the comments on today's WoD, Tony B. weighs in:

"Grace is traditionally performed as a ground to overhead "anyhow." If you have the strength, you'll probably find that power cleans and push jerks afford you the most efficiency."

Guess this is the official position now?
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Old 09-21-2007, 09:02 AM   #2
Steven Low
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Re: Once again on Grace, et al...

No........

We've gone over this multiple times in WOD forum. They're prescribed the way they are for a reason. If they wanted you to do power cleans and push jerks they would've specifically put that in.

http://www.board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=20655 (safe)
http://www.board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=20564

Last edited by Steven Low : 09-21-2007 at 09:05 AM.
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Old 09-21-2007, 09:23 AM   #3
Adrian Bozman
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Re: Once again on Grace, et al...

Steven: I understand where you are coming from, but you're wrong. Grace has always been 'anyhow' for official times. Coach Rut and Coach Glassman have both chimed in on this in the past. Any video demoing it (male or female...I can think of at least three versions off the top of my head) has had power cleans, power jerks and even push presses mixed in. This is nothing new on this workout.

That out of the way, this only becomes an issue when comparing your times to others. I've said this before, but do it both ways. Do it both ways inside the same workout. Get it all faster. One is not 'better' than the other, just different...but for Grace, anyhow is ok.
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Old 09-21-2007, 10:15 AM   #4
Brandon Oto
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Re: Once again on Grace, et al...

I hear you, Steve, but I'm just quoting, and that's directly out of CFSC.
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Old 09-21-2007, 01:15 PM   #5
Gant Grimes
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Re: Once again on Grace, et al...

We've lost the battle, Steven. To me, C&J only means one thing, but Coach has spoken regarding this benchmark:

Quote:
There was never anything for Coach Rutman to lobby. Grace has always been a "two-handed anyhow" as the video portrays convincingly.

If we said "two-hands any how" we'd then have to offer advice as to "how".

C&J will be most efficient. Max output will, however, kill the efficient technique. The productive work is the same regardless of technique. The metabolic costs of the workout increase dramatically with weakening/failing technique.

Comment #99 - Posted by Coach at April 7, 2006 11:30 AM
I'm going to split the "anyhow" up between power snatches and Turkish get-ups.

Last edited by Gant Grimes : 09-21-2007 at 01:25 PM.
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Old 09-21-2007, 01:57 PM   #6
Steven Low
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Re: Once again on Grace, et al...

What is the point of learning C&J then? There's no actual *heavy* C&J like the "heavier" 225 lbs DLs that are going to force people to actual use technique... and then there's almost rarely any max singles or triples of any of the oly lifts whereas there are of DLs and squats.

Ah whatever.
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Old 09-21-2007, 02:23 PM   #7
Chris Walls
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Re: Once again on Grace, et al...

I usually start out with power cleans and power jerks, but I end up doing full cleans and split jerks as I get tired.

Plus it's not like a power jerk is "cheating" the jerk, would you say someone split snatching was not snatching?

As for power cleaning (actual question follows...) In competition, if you were doing a weight that was light enough to power clean, would you get away with that or would it be disqualified? (Why anyone would do a weight that was 'light' to them in competition is besides the point )

edit to add: I do some heavier, ME C+J on my own time (full cleans/split jerks) to work on technique and power. (not on Grace day tho... heh)
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Last edited by Chris Walls : 09-21-2007 at 02:28 PM. Reason: add more info
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Old 09-21-2007, 02:24 PM   #8
Derek Maffett
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Re: Once again on Grace, et al...

What about coordination? It seems to me that power cleans are not going to have as much value there as squat cleans.

Power clean - up, catch
Squat clean - up, down, catch (certainly seems the winner in coordination-demanding movements)
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Old 09-21-2007, 04:26 PM   #9
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Re: Once again on Grace, et al...

This debate has existed for years and it will never be resolved satisfactorily for all concerned parties. Tony B is exactly right that Grace and Isabel, and most of the other early girls, have traditionally been all about speed, even if that means straying from what may presumably "correct" technique.

The only legitimate reason one clean and jerks is that the load cannot be lifted overhead any other way--this describes perfectly the competitive weightlifter. No weightlifter in his or her right mind when given the task of lifting a weight overhead in two movements will chose to clean and split jerk a weight that can be power cleaned, or muscle cleaned for that matter, and push pressed or even pressed. It's a matter of necessity eclipsing efficiency.

In the case of CJing 135lbs, for many guys, the weight is more than light enough to pretty much muscle clean and press - and you'll see nearing the end of 30 reps, this will have begun transitioning to power cleans and push presses or push jerks to make up for the limiting factor of local stamina of the arms--here necessity begins eclipsing efficiency.

If an individual is cleaning and jerking through the maximal range of motion, that individual is performing more work than one who power cleans and presses (assuming there isn't a disparity in bodyweights great enough to make up the difference). If the former individual is cleaning and jerking out of necessity, there's no choice. But if that ROM is merely a formality, then he/she is simply being inefficient.

CF ultimately is about preparation for the real world, and within that framework, it makes no sense to perform any more work than is necessary. To use Coach Glassman's analogy, if you're buried under a pile of rocks, and your friend is removing them by cleaning when he could power clean (or just pick the ****ers up), you'd be pretty ****ed by the time he finished.

An argument can be made for the other side, and that argument would be in defense of comparable standards. But really, this can be dismissed if we decide the standard is not in fact the exercise itself--a clean and jerk--but the objective of moving a bar from the floor to overhead. If this is the case, technique is irrelevant as long as the starting and ending positions are identical.
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Old 09-21-2007, 05:12 PM   #10
Brandon Oto
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Re: Once again on Grace, et al...

There does seem to be some consistency demanded, though. Like Gant suggested, maybe I'll do it as Turkish getups next time

But I think this should be clarified on the main site (front page or FAQ), because this is both non-intuitive and divergent from most of the usual standards.
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