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Old 09-20-2007, 06:20 PM   #11
Catherine Imes
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Re: Kettlebells: RKC vs. AKC

Thanks Gant.

Kelly Moore has also hit MS numbers using Valery's methods.

Leslie,

I'm trying to understand why you wouldn't want information derived from Valery or even Pavel depending on your goals?

Pavel introduced or re-introduced KBs to the USA. Valery has been here for a while. He has been training with them for over 20 years. He has illuminated many concepts in terms of the high rep ballistics.

I know of no other "source" of information in the USA that wasn't directly or indirectly derived from Pavel or Valery. Kettlebell Concepts(David Ganulin) attended the RKC a long time ago. Dmitri Sataev (out of Russia), has worked with Valery.

John Brookfield and Jeff Martone have both done some very innovative impressive Juggling feats and videos.

It goes back to your goals. I guess what I'm having a hard time understanding is why if you like what you've learned from Cotter and find it to be promising don't you stick with it for awhile or long enough to realize results?

If you are interested in methods for Front Squatting with KBs, TGU, power breathing (tension techniques), snatches or swings that are lower rep, but done "harder", then go with the RKC.

Vasily Ginkgo is in the UK or working with people in the UK now. He is Latvian and a World Champion in the Long Cycle. He is very well respected. His English is so so, but he's got some vids on youtube. He's the only other source I know.

Bottomline: You are going to have a hard time finding information that doesn't derive from them in the USA. Several of us have translated magazine articles from 1995 outlining training programs for Kettlebell Sport. However, from what we can tell the information is out of date. For what it is worth..When I went to World Championships in Riga Latvia last year, several of the World Champions came up to Valery and were asking for his advice. He is still (even though he's been in the states for a long time) very known and respected in Eastern Europe.

CI
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Old 09-20-2007, 06:49 PM   #12
Leslie Powell
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Re: Kettlebells: RKC vs. AKC

Thanks Catherine. It's not that I don't want info from Pavel and Valery...imagine a situation where all info on squatting ultimately came from either Paul Chek or Louie Simmons (that's kind of an extreme example and not intended to be a parallel).

Especially given the vaguely huckster-ish side to Pavel (and again, he has plenty of good info, but there's definitely a used-car salesman in there) and some of the "RKC is not kettlebells" rhetoric that I've read on AKC sites, I just wish it were possible to get more first-hand info from other sources. I realize, though, that that might not be possible...it sounds like it isn't.

Like I said, the responses I've already gotten have done a great job of explaining the benefits of the two approaches, so I guess I've gotten the info I was looking for.
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Old 09-24-2007, 06:19 AM   #13
Jason M Struck
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Re: Kettlebells: RKC vs. AKC

I am an RKC, and not affiliated with the AKC.
That being said, I think that what everyone is saying is very true.

I look forward to doing the AKC as well soon. Will I compete in GS? Probably not, but I'd like better technique in high rep stuff. It's a different type of challenge. 10 mins of snatches is a type of marathon I am actually interested in.

RKC is the only workshop that I have ever attended where people went in not really knowing how to squat, and left knowing how to. Pavel is a masterful coach, and if you're view of the world is wider than the long cycle and snatch, then there is much to learn.
If you want a complete KB system, they are both strong, but I do like the fluidity and technical aspects of the people that are being coached by Valery. You are not going to accomplish anything like what Iron Kate has done with exposure to only the RKC.
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Old 06-13-2008, 06:48 PM   #14
Chris Drewry
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Re: Kettlebells: RKC vs. AKC

Good thread, I am wondering if anyones position here has changed since this thread died.

I am still much more partial to the AKC method as I feel it compliments the CrossFit program.
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Old 06-13-2008, 07:15 PM   #15
David Cooke, Jr.
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Re: Kettlebells: RKC vs. AKC

Well, I am a long time Pavel fan, and joined the DD forum in 2000. I started PTP that same year, and I think he is one of the best strength training authors ever. He literally changed my life.
That being said, he has either greatly exaggerated his experience with KB's or his approach is just a blind spot in an otherwise broad and insightful knowledge of physical culture. His RKC approach does not even deserve to be mentioned or compared when considering the AKC protocol. Pavel's approach to using KB's is basically bodybuilding or powerlifting with a KB. The AKC approach is the way of the pros. Its like comparing your local high school football team to the New York Giants. The comparison is laughable.
I'm really not trying to slam Pavel. I would trust the guy on almost any other subject related to physical culture. He is still my favoite authority on flexibility, powerlifting, bodybuilding, and stength training in general.
But the differences in my condition following the AKC approach vs. RKC are night and day.
I went from 50 reps in a 10 minute workout to almost 200. There is no contest when it comes to numbers. And when you can do those numbers, even if alot of it comes from technique, you are still a heck of alot stronger and whole lot "fitter".
Just my experience. Try it for yourself.
-David
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Old 06-13-2008, 08:23 PM   #16
James Neuman
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Re: Kettlebells: RKC vs. AKC

Can someone tell me the difference between the two approaches when it comes to snatches?

I've been trying to teach myself the snatch from the videos at the Art of Strength website, which I guess is RKC focused.
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Old 06-15-2008, 05:19 AM   #17
Robert Payter
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Re: Kettlebells: RKC vs. AKC

Does anyone know where I can read more about Ivan Denisov?I would imagine he uses more of an AKC approach to his training.
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Old 06-15-2008, 05:34 AM   #18
Bryan McWilliams
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Re: Kettlebells: RKC vs. AKC

I want to compliment ever one that has posted on this thread. Since finding the AKC site run by fire fighter fitness I have been surprised at the vitriol coming from the AKC side, directed at RKC. I have wanted to ask this very question, but feared a flame war. It didn't happen. Once again the community shows what makes crossfit unique, and the discussion has reflected coach's values and style.

It does seem that Pavel has chosen not to respond to AKC in kind. I applaud that.

I used RKC techniques to get my 51 year old, 40 lbs overweight body moving again. Doing nothing but loose zone, swings, C&P and snatches I lost 23 lbs and gained muscle. So, for GPP...RKC certainly works.

Now this thread has shown me why I want to learn AKC.

Thanks
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Old 06-15-2008, 12:41 PM   #19
David Cooke, Jr.
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Re: Kettlebells: RKC vs. AKC

Quote:
Originally Posted by James Neuman View Post
Can someone tell me the difference between the two approaches when it comes to snatches?

I've been trying to teach myself the snatch from the videos at the Art of Strength website, which I guess is RKC focused.
There are a number of people here more qualified than me to answer this, and I've been waiting on them to give you a better answer. While waiting on them, I can tell you that a few differences in the AKC approach includes:

1. Lifting for time instead of reps (i.e., a set of 10 minutes as opposed to a set of 25 reps);
2. Lifting for much longer sets (i.e., a 10 minute set of 200 reps as opposed to 1 set of 25);
3. A focus on efficiency, especially in reducing excess tension, as opposed to a "hard style" that seeks to maximize tension.

The irony is that the AKC approach is what produced the athletes that Pavel cites in his books touting the benefits of KB's. I have not heard of anyone in Eastern Europe using the type of workouts he espouses in his books. Maybe I'm wrong, and there are guys out there using his type of training. But I doubt it. I will say, part of his new book ETK is more like true GS than his RKC book was. But its still very elementary when it comes to methods for increasing one's efficiency and time under the bell. Little is said about how to increase one's time. It is not the book one should use to put up MS numbers.
Again, I am a very big Pavel fan and when it comes to lifting heavy or flexibility, he is one of my favorite authors. I just think his approach to KB lifting is not in the same league as AKC. There really is no comparison.
-David
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Old 06-15-2008, 12:51 PM   #20
David Cooke, Jr.
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Re: Kettlebells: RKC vs. AKC

I would give more detailed snatch instructions, but I don't really feel qualified to give detailed instructions as a novice. I will say this: Try to be relaxed as possible, and, as you are lifting, consider where you are tense but do not need to be at the time. You will notice that your grip does not always need to be tensed. It will change in the cousre of the rep. Tense. Loose. Tense. If a body part does not need tensing, relax it. Another thing: can you do 10 minutes with your KB with only one hand switch? If not, what about six minutes? I am of the opinion that, if you can't go 10 minutes with one hand switch then you have not come close to mastering that weight. And if you can't go six minutes with only one hand switch, well, you probably need to humble yourself and get a lighter bell.
Just my opinion...but it seems to be the time-tested way to go...
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