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Old 06-16-2011, 08:36 PM   #21
Charles Applin
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Re: Regional Rankings (World) - First two weekends

Well, I'm looking at the data. Comparing Open to the Regionals shows on average 27 rank difference. So, aside from the extreme top and bottom spots, there's not much correlation between how you did in the open with how you did in the region.

The average placement difference in Canada East (-23.5) and Mid-Atlantic (-18.5) scores seem WAY below the trends from other regions. I don't think that means cheating in the Open as it's unlikely all these came from the same affiliate.

Anyway, my little theory that Open and Regionals would correlate turned out not to be the case. Now, the open was a WOD a week for 6 weeks. If it turns out there's correlation between Regionals and the Finals, that's a clue that the Open may want to experiment with testing recovery such as have people do 3 WODs a week for two weeks or even 6 WODs to be completed over a week's time.
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Old 06-17-2011, 05:53 AM   #22
Sean Lind
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Re: Regional Rankings (World) - First two weekends

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Originally Posted by Nicolas Kizzee View Post
1. I may get around to that.. we will see... however i believe the open results are alittle off.. for instance (without naming names).. i remember seeing 1 guy who placed in the top 50 in the world yet didn't make it through the cut in regionals..I know that there are other cases of this too... This just shows that some affiliates were very generous in their judging
.
I think it would be interesting to see a comparison of Open results on region/world with those who participated at regionals. To see if there was any doctoring of scores. . .

This was something Glassman was talking about how it will be obvious to see at regionals. but how are we to know unless we see the comparison or know that athlete.
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Old 06-17-2011, 02:14 PM   #23
Jacob Sharp
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Re: Regional Rankings (World) - First two weekends

After competing in the Central East last weekend, it seems to me that a glaring weakness with the current system is that extremely talented athletes are going to be sitting in the stands in Carson and not out competing because they happen to live in a certain geographical area. NOT COOL. David Stowe, Nicky Fory, and David Ulmer are all from the Central east and have overall WORLDWIDE rankings in the top 25...and will NOT be competing at the end of July!?!? If I were them I would find a distant cousin that lives in Asia, register there, and clean house next year with a first place finish. I understand we want world wide participation but giving someone in Africa and Asia a free pass while top notch contenders must sit home just because they live in a more competitive region is not what finding the fittest person on earth is all about. All the regionals are doing the same workouts...why don't the top 100 world wide get a ticket to Carson?? Or top 3 per region OR top 25 worldwide?? Or something...anything that gets the top talent to Cali and doesn't make someone fly halfway around the world to get smoked in the first workout of the games and then fly home.
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Old 06-17-2011, 02:49 PM   #24
Sean Dunston
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Re: Regional Rankings (World) - First two weekends

Interesting point, Jacob.
Perhaps you have the traditional podium ceremony for each Region - and the top three are guaranteed a spot at the Games. However, the "field" for the Games is rounded out by those remaining people that finished in the top 50 (or whatever number) men/women, but weren't on the podium at their Regional event.
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Old 06-17-2011, 04:09 PM   #25
Jonathan Perrott
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Re: Regional Rankings (World) - First two weekends

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob Sharp View Post
After competing in the Central East last weekend, it seems to me that a glaring weakness with the current system is that extremely talented athletes are going to be sitting in the stands in Carson and not out competing because they happen to live in a certain geographical area. NOT COOL. David Stowe, Nicky Fory, and David Ulmer are all from the Central east and have overall WORLDWIDE rankings in the top 25...and will NOT be competing at the end of July!?!? If I were them I would find a distant cousin that lives in Asia, register there, and clean house next year with a first place finish. I understand we want world wide participation but giving someone in Africa and Asia a free pass while top notch contenders must sit home just because they live in a more competitive region is not what finding the fittest person on earth is all about. All the regionals are doing the same workouts...why don't the top 100 world wide get a ticket to Carson?? Or top 3 per region OR top 25 worldwide?? Or something...anything that gets the top talent to Cali and doesn't make someone fly halfway around the world to get smoked in the first workout of the games and then fly home.
Can totally understand where you're coming from here. The top 60 at the regional workouts would make for a very intense games.

I think Rob Orlando (Winter Break Road Trip) said something about splitting up the regions further in Crossfit dense areas, allowing people such as David Stowe, a chance to compete in California.
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Old 06-17-2011, 08:16 PM   #26
Charles Applin
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Re: Regional Rankings (World) - First two weekends

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Originally Posted by Sean Dunston View Post
Interesting point, Jacob.
Perhaps you have the traditional podium ceremony for each Region - and the top three are guaranteed a spot at the Games. However, the "field" for the Games is rounded out by those remaining people that finished in the top 50 (or whatever number) men/women, but weren't on the podium at their Regional event.
Good idea. If CFHQ invited just 10 of those that scored the highest but did not place at regionals to the games, you'd have the top 40 regional athletes attending the games (note: the numbers will change a little once the last set of regional results are released).

A major benefit for allowing such an attendance is even in highly competitive regions, athletes will push harder knowing their overall results can still net them a place at the games even if they're fourth or fifth in the region.
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Old 06-18-2011, 04:58 PM   #27
Andrew Gray
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Re: Regional Rankings (World) - First two weekends

What about having a Last Chance Regional? I know there are some big downsides to this but I think it's an interesting idea worth throwing around. Hold a final Regional a week or two after the last standard Regional and open it up to anyone who made the final cut at their Regional but missed a qualifying spot. Let them battle it out for a few extra spots at the Games. I think that would be a pretty damn exciting event to watch.

Problems I see with this are: Expensive for athletes, a lot easier for whoever happens to live near where ever it's being held. The timing would be a big problem - if you are in the last round of Regionals you get almost no time to recover from that effort before heading out to do it all over again. Plus then you have less time from doing the last chance regional to the games. That being said, all those disadvantages are a lot better than not being at the Games!

I really like the idea of wildcard spots, especially considering Grahm Holmberg came really dang close to not even making the Games last year. Weighting Regionals based on performance is one way to go, but there will always be misses, the top athlete's will move around with new athlete's coming up and old athlete's going out, the organizers will always be a year behind.

As for basing the wildcard off scores from the standard Regionals - I think it's a fun exercise to get an idea of where people stand, but it's not a fair comparison. This is fine when just playing around and looking at how people stack up, but when spots to the Games are on the line, that fairness issue becomes really important. Some Regionals are being held inside in air-conditioned stadiums while others are out in 100 degree heat, or pouring rain - that makes a difference and when a few seconds here and there is what makes the difference between who goes and who doesn't, that's a big deal. Not to mention the cases where the actual workouts turn out slights different - different run course profiles, Canada West situation, team workout 4 at Norcal (cut the pull-ups down to 100 due to rain) etc. It will never be an even comparison.

After saying all that, I will also say that I think each year we will get better and better at identifying the top athlete's earlier and earlier and this will become less of an issue. I doubt anyone missing the top 3 would have a chance to win the entire thing. Maybe this year there is a top 10 finisher getting cut, and that sucks, a lot, but I don't think any potential winners are being cut. It also adds to the excitement of regionals when so much is on the line, adding wildcard spots takes a little bit of the edge off since there is always another chance. The Games is for the best of the best, if you want to go, you need to win.
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Old 06-19-2011, 05:37 AM   #28
Jay Rhodes
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Re: Regional Rankings (World) - First two weekends

In other sports where you represent regions/countries, that's just the way it is.

Think Olympics.

Team USA is so deep in some track events that four people may be able to challenge for a spot in the Olympic final, or at very least make semis. But if they don't make top three at the Nationals it doesn't matter.

There are pros and cons about both systems.
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Old 06-19-2011, 06:17 AM   #29
Benjamin Skott
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Re: Regional Rankings (World) - First two weekends

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Originally Posted by Jay Rhodes View Post
In other sports where you represent regions/countries, that's just the way it is.

Think Olympics.

Team USA is so deep in some track events that four people may be able to challenge for a spot in the Olympic final, or at very least make semis. But if they don't make top three at the Nationals it doesn't matter.

There are pros and cons about both systems.
The Olympics are about the best from each country competing against each other, and so each country sends their best.

The Crossfit Games, in the words of Crossfit HQ, are about finding the fittest in the world, not having the best in each region compete against each other. When you're leaving a David Stowe at home to take the best guy from a region where no one's times were competitive against the rest of the world, then you aren't having a competition of the fittest in the world. You are instead pitting the best in each region against each other. So they need to either change their stated purpose, or change the system to match the purpose.
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Old 06-19-2011, 06:41 PM   #30
Charles Applin
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Re: Regional Rankings (World) - First two weekends

@Jay Rhodes:

Fortunately, the CF Games seem a bit more adaptable than the olympics. CFHQ (coach in particular) has changed rules on what's required to make it to the games. It was the '09 games with OPT being given a spot that led to the legacy rule. Later, they added a "top 5 get spots" rule. There were some last chance qualifiers. Hell, there are open invitations for other Fitness advocates such as Decathletes and P90X to pony up their own athletes for a shot at cash that entirely bypasses the open and regionals.

Basically, there are some pretty decent rules that people are cool with when it comes to getting to the games which were brought about by looking at the situation and making changes.

@Andrew Gray,

I understand your concern as the conditions in which people did the workout varied region to region. However, the same could be said of the Open itself where you see some doing it in a gym while others are out in the heat. Still, at the end of the day everyone pretty much did the same workout. The major differences with regard to changes to the WODs can be accounted for That makes it the most fair way to get a group of names for wild card spots. And honestly, those spots will come from the competitive regions anyway.

As for a last chance qualifier, it's probably too much to ask the Top 60 non-qualified athletes to travel once more for a last ditch chance.
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