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Old 03-31-2011, 09:01 AM   #1
Pär Larsson
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Do you teach static or kipping pushups? Why?

[The Games-standard pushup is a related but different issue more concerned with judging and strength-testing in my humble opinion. This is not an attack on Tony Budding and crew, they're doing a fine job with limited resources.]
  1. What is more functional?
  2. What better prepares you for a life in the trenches of _________ profession/lifestyle?
  3. Why does CF teach kipping pullups and kipping just about everything else (situps?) but the vast majority of us (all of us?) hold up the static pushup as the gold standard of pushups?

For purposes of this discussion:
  • Worming - start on floor, raising the upper torso first, then the butt up to finish in the top "plank" position.
  • Kipping pushup - start on floor, kipp up with butt first, finish in "plank".
For more details on "games" pushups see Tony's excellent 2011 Reebok CF Games Open Wod #2 video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hiluk9nhGXs WFS



Functionality of pushups:
  • Rapidly getting from a prone position to kneeling/squat/shooting/fighting/moving position.
  • Similarly to the bench press - getting a weight or person off your chest when pinned, i.e. jj "bridging" move.
  • Punching power?
  • Anything I've missed?

Last edited by Pär Larsson : 03-31-2011 at 09:04 AM.
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Old 03-31-2011, 09:26 AM   #2
Sean Dunston
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Re: Do you teach static or kipping pushups? Why?

gee.
I thought the "kipping" push up was a joke.



wfs

http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/C...pingPushup.mov
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Last edited by Sean Dunston : 03-31-2011 at 09:31 AM.
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Old 03-31-2011, 02:14 PM   #3
Jason Denny
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Re: Do you teach static or kipping pushups? Why?

I don't feel it. Seems like grasping at straws to me.
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Old 03-31-2011, 02:34 PM   #4
Pearse Shields
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Re: Do you teach static or kipping pushups? Why?

The push-up has long been a staple in Crossfit as one of the only horizontal pushing movements we do. The functionality of it is that it builds strength and endurance through the core and upper body, including the chest (an area that is commonly neglected in WODs). Crossfit may teach kipping pull-ups, but rarely will I use them as I do my own programming. Why would you even want to do your push-ups with a kip? Honestly, why, asides from that it cuts 5 seconds from your "Murph"?
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Old 03-31-2011, 03:32 PM   #5
CJ Kim
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Re: Do you teach static or kipping pushups? Why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pär Larsson View Post
What is more functional?
As Coach said about the kipping pull-up: "Avoiding the kipping pull-up does for arboreal locomotion (swinging through the trees) what avoiding the squat does for bipedal locomotion (walking/running) - renders you physically impotent."

I would assume the same holds true with the kipping push-up and belly-based locomotion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pär Larsson View Post
[*]What better prepares you for a life in the trenches of _________ profession/lifestyle?
Great question, really cuts to the heart of why we do this stuff. As a lawyer, I can say that crossfitting has noticeably improved my conditioning (I can type for 90 minutes or more without getting winded) and my strength (the other day I reloaded the printer with an entire ream of paper ONE HANDED). Adding a good butt-snap to my push-ups can only improve this more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pär Larsson View Post
Why does CF teach kipping pullups and kipping just about everything else (situps?) but the vast majority of us (all of us?) hold up the static pushup as the gold standard of pushups?
Not me, I kip everything.
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Old 03-31-2011, 03:36 PM   #6
CJ Kim
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Re: Do you teach static or kipping pushups? Why?

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Originally Posted by Sean Dunston View Post
gee.
I thought the "kipping" push up was a joke.
I think that's what keeps Crossfit so interesting -- sometimes the workouts seem like some kind of dare or just an elaborate joke where we're the punchline. Then you PR a workout you haven't done in six months and you realise it's working and it was all worth it.
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Old 03-31-2011, 04:32 PM   #7
Pär Larsson
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Re: Do you teach static or kipping pushups? Why?

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Originally Posted by Sean Dunston View Post
gee.
I thought the "kipping" push up was a joke.



wfs

http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/C...pingPushup.mov
If kipping an exercise is a joke then I don't get it. Anyone care to explain the joke to me?

I realize that there are people with mad upper body strength or power/weight/armlength ratio for whom kipping pushups would be ...boring or too easy(?), but for the people completely new to crossfit that show up to my classes, the average older non-crossfit people and those who just want an efficient, fast and low-energy way to get off the ground from a prone position - I really don't see the point in teaching static anything, unless as a precursor to a more functional, advanced, multi-joint movement?

Not that static pushups aren't multi-joint - I count two joints. But kipping is more joints and definitely more efficient.

I'm beginning to think this obsession with static movements is a just a symptom of a bunch of "hardcore" military types or traditional gymnastics people stuck in the type of thinking that says "kipping is girly, you gotta be hardcore and develop strength" and impress the judges. Kinda like bicep curls develop strength and performs a clean, isolated movement.

Except I think your time spent doing bicep curls is better spent doing Hang Power Cleans or something like that, so that when you get out in the real world, you're tired, weighed down by wet gear, a backpack, rifle, ammo and food/water, sleep depped and with a fever - you reflexively do an efficient multi-joint exercise instead of the same old static movement you've been teaching yourself to do day in and day out in the gym.

Same thing with static pushups - why give yourself the muscle memory of an inefficient way of moving?

Or maybe because people would laugh at me if I did kipping pushups in a military/LEO/fire-rescue setting. I hate getting laughed at.

For the record I do static exercises all the time, when I'm bored or just feel like it or too injured to kip something.

Last edited by Pär Larsson : 03-31-2011 at 04:53 PM.
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Old 03-31-2011, 04:48 PM   #8
Pär Larsson
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Re: Do you teach static or kipping pushups? Why?

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Originally Posted by Pearse Shields View Post
Why would you even want to do your push-ups with a kip? Honestly, why, asides from that it cuts 5 seconds from your "Murph"?
If your goal is to do well in the Games then I highly recommend not doing kipping pushups.

If your goal is to not get laughed at in various gym/military/LEO/fire-rescue/etc situations then I highly recommend not doing kipping pushups.

If your goal is to have the most efficient way of moving your body when you're so tired, exhausted, sleep-depped and weighed down that you can hardly function in a hostile environment or emergency or real-world situation - then I recommend training yourself to move efficiently. There's always Bench Press if you want to have that top-end strength to get a body or a log or an enemy grappler off your chest when you're pinned down.

I.e., real world or gym world? Which one do you train for? What situations do you expect to face?
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Old 03-31-2011, 05:10 PM   #9
Jonathan Vechet
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Re: Do you teach static or kipping pushups? Why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pär Larsson View Post
If your goal is to do well in the Games then I highly recommend not doing kipping pushups.

If your goal is to not get laughed at in various gym/military/LEO/fire-rescue/etc situations then I highly recommend not doing kipping pushups.

If your goal is to have the most efficient way of moving your body when you're so tired, exhausted, sleep-depped and weighed down that you can hardly function in a hostile environment or emergency or real-world situation - then I recommend training yourself to move efficiently. There's always Bench Press if you want to have that top-end strength to get a body or a log or an enemy grappler off your chest when you're pinned down.

I.e., real world or gym world? Which one do you train for? What situations do you expect to face?
I spent four years in the Marine Corps as an infantry rifleman and did my time in Iraqistan. Not once have I ever been in a situation where a kipping pull up would have helped me out in any way. Have you tried a kipping push up with 80lbs of gear on?

You talk about moving efficiently; the kipping push up is not an efficient way of getting off of the ground face down. How about pull your knee closer to your chest and using that to help push you off the ground? Your legs are stronger than your upper body.

You talk about being tired and what not; when your that tired in a hostile situation, or even not tired in a hostile situation, your primal instincts will kick in. People can do kipping pull ups, to an extent, without having been taught, but the kipping push up needs to be taught. It is not an instinct, and form is the last thing people think about in a poop hits the fan situation. The most efficient method is one you don't have to think about. Granted, things can be taught to the point where they become almost a reaction, but then again, the kipping push up is not the most effective method to get your *** off of the ground.

I can't wait for the kipping squat, kipping sit up, kipping this, that, and whatever else.
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Old 03-31-2011, 05:30 PM   #10
Shane Skowron
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Re: Do you teach static or kipping pushups? Why?

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Originally Posted by Pär Larsson View Post
If your goal is to have the most efficient way of moving your body when you're so tired, exhausted, sleep-depped and weighed down that you can hardly function in a hostile environment or emergency or real-world situation - then I recommend training yourself to move efficiently.

If you're so tired, exhausted, sleep-depped, and weighed down, you're going to wish you trained to be stronger or more enduring. Not trained to circumvent the exercise by inventing a new one.
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