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Exercises Movements, technique & proper execution

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Old 01-22-2015, 12:21 AM   #1
Dare Vodusek
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Heavy deadlift reps, TnG or no TnG?

I apologize if this was already debated here, but search finds nothing for me.

We had a short debate over at CFFB, as some are for, some are against TnG when doing heavy deadlifting sets, the owner of the program, is against it:

http://johnwelbourn.powerathletehq.c...dlifts-viagra/ WFS
http://jasonferruggia.com/drop-the-deadlift/ WFS

The most important part:

Quote:
You see, the eccentric component, or lowering phase of the deadlift can often be the riskiest part. The last thing you ever want to do is a slow eccentric on a deadlift.

To recommend such a thing is highly irresponsible of trainers or coaches. If you want to be fresh, explosive and minimize soreness you should never really emphasize the eccentric component of any lift
Now the pro TnG camp and his most notable member, Richard Hawthorne. These videos will pretty much sum up how and why he believes TnG are a go in training and to get even more gains:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W57juRidtSw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTh_hwqp5SU
Both seem WFS

Also, here is the latest training set from him, doing 530 lbs x 6 reps with only ~130lbs of bodyweight, no belt, no straps, no suite: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SM1_Vpm2rb4 WFS

He is also the strongest pound by pound man alive and has beed injury free, so surely he is doing something right with this method?

Also, on another part of the spectrum, George Leeman, a non human monster pulling a couple of reps at over 900lbs (with bands thou) and still doing TnG: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JQrLz3pKJg not sure if really WFS

So I see good reasons for both TnG and non-TnG deadlifts, but the question is how to decide? According to John and Jason the TnG will often lead to more fatique which can then hinder other parts of training. As we CFers train for both, strength and endurance, this might be a good reason to go against TnG, because doing TnG would just burn too much of my energy leaving it nothing for conditioning part. While Richard or George just train to be strong as **** and all they do is train in that direction. But again, on a program like CFFB we do deadlifts once per week, and even then only one heavy set and thats it, surely this cant lead into such a big fatique that the rest of training would get affected by it?

Also another reason why I, personally, TnG is because of my DL setup. I always tighten myself in the standing position (loading order by Kelly Starrett) and not at the bottom. So resetting each rep Id have to stand up and repeat, which seems a bit excessive
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Old 01-22-2015, 08:20 AM   #2
Luke Sirakos
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Re: Heavy deadlift reps, TnG or no TnG?

You shouldn't use outliers to determine the optimal way for most to train.
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Old 01-22-2015, 11:26 AM   #3
Drew Cloutier
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Re: Heavy deadlift reps, TnG or no TnG?

Personally I think it depends on a couple things:

- what sport/reason are you training?
- do you only utilize this form of technique?

For example I pause bench everything except DB and close grip bench, I compete in powerlifting so pausing almost every type of bench I do is extra beneficial (If your TnG is more of a bounce rep it doesn't count even if you're not a powerlifter)

On the other hand, DL TnG tends to be how Crossfit and Strongman go, when they are trying to bang out the reps. So practising the way you compete is beneficial, I don't think you should always rep this way though. DL with resets between reps help really build the bottom/start position of the DL as well as really dial in your setup.

So if your DL is weak off the floor why would you deliberately take out the part you need to strengthen the most...UNLESS you are in a rep competition.
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Old 01-22-2015, 01:34 PM   #4
Struan Potter
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Re: Heavy deadlift reps, TnG or no TnG?

A slow eccentric helps strengthen the back due to increased time under tension. You can reset between reps or tng with a slow eccentric.

I don't buy the eccentric portion being the riskiest part of the deadlift. But I am a weightlifter so I don't compromise my back at all when pulling. The moment any part of my back starts to round I stop.
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Old 01-22-2015, 04:13 PM   #5
Mauricio Leal
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Re: Heavy deadlift reps, TnG or no TnG?

Coaching in an affiliate with a bunch of beginner-intermediate athletes, we almost exclusively practice TnG style Deadlifts. 5RM mostly, 3RM occasionally. 1RM only on special occasions or if we have some athletes doing a Powerlifting Meet. For a few reasons:

1) Breaking it off the floor is the hardest part for the vast majority. Fatigue over multiple heavy reps compounds this, and makes it increasingly difficult for an athlete to perceive their own proper spinal position, or lack thereof, and more generally clouds their judgement.

2) TnG style allows no disengagement once the weight initially comes off the floor, so it is unlikely that the athlete will suddenly relax their midline at any point of the movement, especially during the critical TnG moment.

3) It allows us to teach and emphasize top down breathing and bracing. No one lingers long during their setup -- giving the coach uncertainty -- if they have to brace and hold their breath before they reach down to grab the bar.

4) The time between an athlete achieving their final setup position and the weight coming off the floor is usually so minuscule that a coach has little opportunity to intervene -- if the position is bad -- before it's too late.

5) Learning how to TnG with heavy weights makes it a breeze during metcons.

Of course to achieve higher levels of strength non-TnG style must be used as well, and a good coach can teach their athletes how to do it relatively safely, but we just don't have anyone besides myself pulling over 500/400, so it's not worth the risk and much more stressful classes IMHO.
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Old 01-23-2015, 02:31 AM   #6
Philipp Lendner
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Re: Heavy deadlift reps, TnG or no TnG?

TnG is possible on Deadlifts if
  1. You can achieve a perfect setup on every rep
  2. You do not bounce your reps. Bouncing is cheating and therefore prohibited. This is called "touch and go", not "bounce it to your knees and then do the easy part from there”.

If you cannot do these two things, you either drop the barbell or put it down slowly and then reset. And from what I have seen, few people are able to do that when it gets heavy. Typically the upper back starts to round.
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Old 01-23-2015, 03:31 AM   #7
Dare Vodusek
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Re: Heavy deadlift reps, TnG or no TnG?

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Originally Posted by Philipp Lendner View Post
Typically the upper back starts to round.
Kelly have a video on that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beNe-7EbBhw WFS

They said its fine to round upper back as long as the low back is flat, or am I not understanding it correctly?
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Old 01-23-2015, 04:53 AM   #8
Struan Potter
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Re: Heavy deadlift reps, TnG or no TnG?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dare Vodusek View Post
Kelly have a video on that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=beNe-7EbBhw WFS

They said its fine to round upper back as long as the low back is flat, or am I not understanding it correctly?
Personally I'd never say any rounding of any part of the back is OK, but as I said before I'm not a powerlifter. I imagine they mean the injury risk of rounding the upper back in a deadlift is lower than rounding the lumbar, which you should not do at all when lifting weights.
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Old 01-23-2015, 06:11 AM   #9
Dare Vodusek
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Re: Heavy deadlift reps, TnG or no TnG?

Ok, I think im switching to sumo deadlift until I sort my back up. As I cant get into proper position without rounding my upper back (lumbar is fine) and I thought thats fine, but now...I guess its time for a change.
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Old 01-23-2015, 01:08 PM   #10
Drew Cloutier
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Re: Heavy deadlift reps, TnG or no TnG?

Best advice, regardless of what style you choose to lift...video record yourself.
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