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Old 11-19-2007, 08:49 AM   #31
Tim Donahey
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Re: Dynamic Effort, Max Effort, Volume and Constructing a Black Box for Strength & Po

Originally Posted by Peter Dell'Orto View Post
Tim, another question.

I've been reading more on DE. This Dave Tate article was especially useful: (wfs)

In it, they have lifters doings 3-rep sets for Bench Press and 2-rep sets for Squats and Deadlifts. There is a buildup in reps and then a large number of sets at a relatively high weight (the squats building to 8x2, for example). That takes care of the bench press, back squat, and deadlift. But what about other "slow" lifts (say, weighted dead hang pullups, shoulder press, bent rows) or non-"slow" exercises (push press, thruster)?
Peter, yeah the speed deadlift, speed bench, and especially speed box squats are the mainstays of the Westside DE day and they have had great success using them. But any movement that can be done explosively will fulfill that same need. Here's how I would perform the movements in question:

Deadhang pull-ups: Start from the hang, explosive pull, regular concentric, explosive pull.

Bent rows: Start from the ground and pull explosively into your upper abs (make sure they are tense or you'll feel it), regular eccentric, repeat.

Press: Regular eccentric, fast concentric. Push press and push jerk can also be substituted.

Thrusters: Could be done on a box to de-activate the hip flexors for maximum RFD. So, start seated from a box, shins vertical, and explode. Or you could do the slow eccentric into a squat and explode into extension. Snatch balance is another possibility.

By extension, I'd think the shoulder press and pullups would probably be fine on 3 reps like the bench press. Squat variations like the front squat would go for 2 reps like back squats.
Sure thing. Westside likes 8x3 for bench (upper) and 10x2 for squats (lower), and 8x2 for deadlifts (lower) and I think that can be applied pretty generally, or by using another variation from the Prilepin chart.

It's the non-slow stuff I'm curious about. Is it worth doing them just as ME, and assuming the "DE" versions of those are lighter reps done in metcons?
Certain lifts can not be done slow, snatch and clean for example, so they can not be done ME... but the lifts you question, the thrusters for example, can be done relatively slow so they can absolutely be done as ME and/or DE. As far as selecting a DE movement in general, you want something that will serve to dynamically aid a comparable max effort lift. ME Bench alternates with DE Bench, ME Squat with DE Squat, ME Press with DE Press/Push Press/ or Thrusters which also applies to the squat, and pull-ups or deadlifts could alternate with the power clean.

If you're not doing special oly lifting for DE (no snatch, full cleans, or jerks) does that change the need for DE versions of thrusters and push presses?
I think if you aren't doing any oly movements that thrusters and push presses are good alternatives. But the real question is will those movements have carry over to your ME movements? If your focus is on bench press and deadlifts than maybe you should be looking at trying something different for your DE day.

Do they require a different rep count to make sense as DE?
You want to choose a set/rep scheme that will allow you to maximize speed throughout every rep without deceleration. Westside has had a lot of positive development with 8x3 with bench, so I think that is a safe estimate for all upper body work. You're going to fatigue faster on the total body and lower body movements, so you may want to keep those reps and sets lower than for the upper body as WS does.

All of this is me just thinking. I did a DE 5x5 of the bench press and bent-over row the other day, and I found that after rep 3 I slowed down a little no matter what. So I started to think about what rep limits make sense for the other lifts.
I think that's a viable way to test yourself. Anything more than 3 reps slowed you down on bench and rows, so anything under 3 reps will produce max explosion. Then you can experiment with 8x3, 10x2, or 12x2, or something else that works well for you.

All really great questions, Peter. Hope this furthers your template design.
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