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Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

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Old 11-08-2007, 09:28 AM   #21
Craig Loizides
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Re: Dynamic Effort, Max Effort, Volume and Constructing a Black Box for Strength & Po

Do you think metcon workouts can be used to take the place of DE days? For example, if I do Diane does it still make sense to do DE deadlift and press or would it make more sense to focus mainly on ME lifts?
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Old 11-08-2007, 10:30 AM   #22
Tim Donahey
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Re: Dynamic Effort, Max Effort, Volume and Constructing a Black Box for Strength & Po

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Originally Posted by Craig Loizides View Post
Do you think metcon workouts can be used to take the place of DE days? For example, if I do Diane does it still make sense to do DE deadlift and press or would it make more sense to focus mainly on ME lifts?
Metcon and DE train different energy systems, DE trains Phosphagen because it is a short maximal effort with intemittent rests, while something like "Diane" trains Glycolytic because it is a sustained submaximal effort with little or no resting.

Now supposing that your strength were such that "Diane" did require short max efforts with rests, it would still not be good for a DE day in this template because, for one HSPU's are not DE (unless you can do clapping HSPU's, which would be awesome), and for another DE days focus on one movement -not two-, and for another it would screw with the rotation. In MEBB you focus on a handful of movements and rotate them, and subbing in WODs for ME/DE would throw that pattern out of whack.

What you should do though is utilize it as your CF day, as long as it fulfills the parameters of a Glycolytic based workout and (ideally) you're not working Deadlifts/shoulders two days in a row.

Edit: your intention wasn't totally clear from your post, but you want to be doing WOD's and ME/DE Days on separate days.

Last edited by Tim Donahey : 11-08-2007 at 10:35 AM.
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Old 11-08-2007, 08:48 PM   #23
Craig Loizides
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Re: Dynamic Effort, Max Effort, Volume and Constructing a Black Box for Strength & Po

I guess my real question is who would benefit from this program instead of a standard MEBB program? There is already so much submaximal work in crossfit I'm wondering if it makes sense to eliminate half of the ME work.
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Old 11-08-2007, 08:57 PM   #24
Steven Low
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Re: Dynamic Effort, Max Effort, Volume and Constructing a Black Box for Strength & Po

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Originally Posted by Craig Loizides View Post
I guess my real question is who would benefit from this program instead of a standard MEBB program? There is already so much submaximal work in crossfit I'm wondering if it makes sense to eliminate half of the ME work.
I'm not seeing the submaximal work in CF that much -- we looking at the same program? Rarely do they say don't go to failure especially with the "for-time" WODs, ME days with 5-5-5s, 3-3-3s and 1-1-1s and the hero workouts.

MEBB and constructing something like this is very much nearly the same thing besides the DE sessions which can be good if you're burning out from lifting heavy and doing CF WODs. If not, then you can cut the DE days if you want (at least my opinion).

Ideally, if I were constructing a program it would probably include about 2-3 exercises on the ME days one of which would be a lower -- squat, DL, oly lift, variation thereof -- and either a push or pull ME or perhaps both which would put a horizontal push with a horizontal pull and/or a vertical push with a vertical pull. The main problem with adding work to your program is that you're doing MMA type stuff already 5-6 days a week which would be tough incorporating CF days already not to mention adding in some more days for ME/strength workouts.

Last edited by Steven Low : 11-08-2007 at 09:02 PM.
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Old 11-08-2007, 09:36 PM   #25
Craig Loizides
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Re: Dynamic Effort, Max Effort, Volume and Constructing a Black Box for Strength & Po

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Originally Posted by Steven Low View Post
I'm not seeing the submaximal work in CF that much -- we looking at the same program? Rarely do they say don't go to failure especially with the "for-time" WODs, ME days with 5-5-5s, 3-3-3s and 1-1-1s and the hero workouts.
Every single metcon or 2/3 of the workouts are done with submaximal weight. I realize it's not the same as DE, but it's definitely not ME.

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MEBB and constructing something like this is very much nearly the same thing besides the DE sessions which can be good if you're burning out from lifting heavy and doing CF WODs. If not, then you can cut the DE days if you want (at least my opinion).
OK, so as long as I'm not burning out on ME, there's no need to do DE? That's really what I was wondering.

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Ideally, if I were constructing a program it would probably include about 2-3 exercises on the ME days one of which would be a lower -- squat, DL, oly lift, variation thereof -- and either a push or pull ME or perhaps both which would put a horizontal push with a horizontal pull and/or a vertical push with a vertical pull.
That's exactly what I'm doing now. Thanks.
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Old 11-08-2007, 09:43 PM   #26
Steven Low
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Re: Dynamic Effort, Max Effort, Volume and Constructing a Black Box for Strength & Po

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Originally Posted by Craig Loizides View Post
Every single metcon or 2/3 of the workouts are done with submaximal weight. I realize it's not the same as DE, but it's definitely not ME.

OK, so as long as I'm not burning out on ME, there's no need to do DE? That's really what I was wondering.

That's exactly what I'm doing now. Thanks.
1. Well, max effort is generally characterized by weightlifting in phosphagen. But you can say that CF WODs are max effort in the sense that you're trying to maximize power per workout. Although it is vastly different in some areas (cardiovascular & output per rep to name a few), they are very nearly the same in taxing the CNS and muscles in terms of recovery.

2. DE, from what Tim was telling me earlier, is supposed to be geared towards power workouts. So think of them in terms of maximizing power output per repetition which is beneficial for strength. Much like olympic weightlifters gear their workouts towards both strength (in backsquat, front squat, etc.) and power lifting (snatch, clean and jerk, etc). a combination of both usually works pretty well to elicit strength gains.

In this case, I would revise what I said to a combination of DE and strength work would work well for most people assuming you had good technique on oly lifts especially to harness maximum power output from these. Any of the DE stuff you should be doing explosively as fast as you can.
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Old 11-10-2007, 11:53 AM   #27
Tim Donahey
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Re: Dynamic Effort, Max Effort, Volume and Constructing a Black Box for Strength & Po

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MEBB and constructing something like this is very much nearly the same thing besides the DE sessions which can be good if you're burning out from lifting heavy and doing CF WODs. If not, then you can cut the DE days if you want (at least my opinion).
Right on point. If you want to train explosively, this is the way to do it. If you are platueing in your slow lifts, this is something that will get you unstuck. If you want more variety, this will give you that. If not, then don't.

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Originally Posted by Steven Low View Post
2. DE, from what Tim was telling me earlier, is supposed to be geared towards power workouts. So think of them in terms of maximizing power output per repetition which is beneficial for strength. Much like olympic weightlifters gear their workouts towards both strength (in backsquat, front squat, etc.) and power lifting (snatch, clean and jerk, etc). a combination of both usually works pretty well to elicit strength gains..
ME days elicit strength gains by maximizing weight (force), DE days will elicit strength gains by maximizing speed (power). More power optimizes your CNS to recruit greater muscle fibers in lesser time which carries over to the slow lifts as well as oly lifting. So the goal is to maximize the speed with which you complete the repetition. In the squat clean, for example, from workout to workout instead of increasing the weight and maintaining speed, you increase speed and maintain the weight, within various intensity ranges.

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Originally Posted by Steven Low View Post
In this case, I would revise what I said to a combination of DE and strength work would work well for most people assuming you had good technique on oly lifts especially to harness maximum power output from these. Any of the DE stuff you should be doing explosively as fast as you can.
Exactly.

Last edited by Tim Donahey : 11-10-2007 at 11:55 AM.
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Old 11-14-2007, 08:35 AM   #28
David Stout
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Re: Dynamic Effort, Max Effort, Volume and Constructing a Black Box for Strength & Po

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1st cycle: 55-65% or 70-75%/1RM:
Tim,

Sorry if you already covered this. But what do you suspect the different percentages of the 1 RM in this cycle would elicit in terms of different results.

Thanks,

David
CrossFit Chattanooga
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Old 11-14-2007, 03:24 PM   #29
Tim Donahey
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Re: Dynamic Effort, Max Effort, Volume and Constructing a Black Box for Strength & Po

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Tim,

Sorry if you already covered this. But what do you suspect the different percentages of the 1 RM in this cycle would elicit in terms of different results.

Thanks,

David
CrossFit Chattanooga
David,

The short answer: The 55-65% range will evoke greater power, the 70-75% evoke greater "strength-speed".

The long answer: The goal in either case is to maximize velocity, that means a smooth, well executed movement free from accumulated fatigue. If that's easier to maintain in the 55-65% 5 rep range the choice is easy, but if performed gracefully in either range then the choice becomes a slight more complex. Obviously the bar will move slower in the 70-75% range, but if the trainee is lifting with the intent of producing maximum velocity, the CNS response is very close to equal as are the intra-muscular benefits when applied to maximal effort lifting. So what's the difference? The difference is that the rate of force development (RFD, basically how quickly a force is generated) can be trained specific to each range. Do you want to generate force faster in the power range (oly lifting) or in the strength-speed range (closer to slow lifting). That particular model above defers toward strength-speed, not power, to aid the ME days. If you want to train power, train in the 55-65% range instead and, ideally, train your RFD in all ranges. For more info on this google the "force velocity curve"... and hopefully you'll see a future article that goes into some depth on this and a new template to go along with it.

Last edited by Tim Donahey : 11-14-2007 at 03:27 PM.
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Old 11-18-2007, 11:49 PM   #30
Peter Dell'Orto
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Re: Dynamic Effort, Max Effort, Volume and Constructing a Black Box for Strength & Po

Tim, another question.

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Originally Posted by Tim Donahey View Post
But can you use DE with the Slow Lifts? Yes! A popular way of doing this is to go slow on the eccentric portion of the movement (the "down" part) and explode under the bar on the concentric portion (the "up" part).
Here's one possibility of incorporating DE into the Slow Lifts based on Mark Rippetoe's "Texas Method":

1st cycle: 80%/1RM: 5-5-5-5-5 (Volume)
2nd cycle: 65%/1RM: 3-3-3-3-3-3-3-3 (DE, Speed)
3rd cycle: 90-95%/1RM: 3-3-3, + 100+%/1RM: 1-1-1 (ME, Intensity)

Now this periodization scheme would work very well for an Intermediate/Advanced lifter, but for the Novice/Beginner I would strictly stick with the 3x5 or 5x5 rep schemes for strength training since you'll be getting plenty of DE work with the Oly lifts.
I've been reading more on DE. This Dave Tate article was especially useful:

http://elitefts.com/documents/period...le__part_2.htm (wfs)

In it, they have lifters doings 3-rep sets for Bench Press and 2-rep sets for Squats and Deadlifts. There is a buildup in reps and then a large number of sets at a relatively high weight (the squats building to 8x2, for example). That takes care of the bench press, back squat, and deadlift. But what about other "slow" lifts (say, weighted dead hang pullups, shoulder press, bent rows) or non-"slow" exercises (push press, thruster)?

By extension, I'd think the shoulder press and pullups would probably be fine on 3 reps like the bench press. Squat variations like the front squat would go for 2 reps like back squats. It's the non-slow stuff I'm curious about. Is it worth doing them just as ME, and assuming the "DE" versions of those are lighter reps done in metcons? Do they require a different rep count to make sense as DE? If you're not doing special oly lifting for DE (no snatch, full cleans, or jerks) does that change the need for DE versions of thrusters and push presses?

All of this is me just thinking. I did a DE 5x5 of the bench press and bent-over row the other day, and I found that after rep 3 I slowed down a little no matter what. So I started to think about what rep limits make sense for the other lifts.


I hope my questions help you sharpen up your discussion of this topic.

Peter
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