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Old 04-16-2012, 08:08 PM   #1
Tom Lapaglia
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Chiropractic 3 times per week?

Have known of curve in lower spine for years. Occasionally make the wrong move, over lift, etc and some pain. I visited a chiropractor who took X-rays ( which confirmed curve in spine) and they also did some sort of nerve scan. Anyway, they want to prescribe a 3 times per week program for a year for 3 grand. I wanted to get folks opinion on whether this seems like reasonable care or over the top?
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Old 04-16-2012, 09:24 PM   #2
Megan Zetter
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Re: Chiropractic 3 times per week?

Run far far away from that chiropractor!!! It's this type of DC that gives chiropractic a bad name. If you want chiropractic care for your back seek out someone who will address your issues and give you education regarding back health and specific rehab for you.

There is absolutely no reason you would need 3xwk care for what sounds to be simple mechanical low back pain. Proper lifting technique, core strengthening and mobility of the hips and T-spine can easily be treated/taught in a half dozen office visits or less. Follow-up care for continued progressive rehab may be warranted for issues that may pop up, but you definitely DO NOT need what that chiro is trying to sell you.
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Old 04-17-2012, 04:39 AM   #3
Brian Strump
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Re: Chiropractic 3 times per week?

Run! Sometimes I just want to pretend I don't know $hit about $hit and walk into one of these offices and fire off questions about where they came up with their BS plan.

Do the rest of the public a favor, turn him into the board; and find another one. Sad thing is that some people may actually refer you to another like this! They start preaching about God and stuff, and suddenly peoples wallets part like the sea.
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Old 04-17-2012, 05:30 AM   #4
Tom Lapaglia
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Re: Chiropractic 3 times per week?

Thank you, I appreciate your honesty
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Old 04-17-2012, 06:07 AM   #5
Megan Zetter
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Re: Chiropractic 3 times per week?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Strump View Post
Run! Sometimes I just want to pretend I don't know $hit about $hit and walk into one of these offices and fire off questions about where they came up with their BS plan.
I've wanted to do this too. Someday ...
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Old 04-17-2012, 10:44 AM   #6
Josh Bailey
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Re: Chiropractic 3 times per week?

That does sound like a lot.
But, it depends on what you believe really. This type of chiropractor is probably subscribing to the belief that your nervous system functions better when your spine functions properly and that many illnesses can be prevented with just adjustments to your spine. That adjustments free up energy in your body to be used for other things like healing. In that model, you need adjustments to your spine just like you need a cleaning/check up for your teeth...regularly. Or you need to exercise regularly to maintain your health. And it takes more work if you start either of those with ****ty teeth or ****ty fitness. Both of those last 3 concepts not really arguable.
You are talking about approximately 150 adjustments for your spine. Normally, in order to get a change in the curve of your spine that is recognizable on an xray you need about 36 visits or 12 weeks at 3 times a week (you mentioned curve in your spine, of which you have 3 that are normally there, so I think what you are saying is that you have a problem in one of those curves - ex. its not there or your curve isn't like the model/drawing the Doctor showed you is normal).
Dr. Deed Harrison showed that it is possible to change a curve in the spine and many chiropractors have shown that as well with a technique called Chiropractic Biophysics or CBP. I have seen it in my own experience. But, it doesn't happen with just adjustments. There is A LOT of therapies and exercise that is involved. What is he promising? To change the curve? Its possible. But, BEWARE if he is only promising to do it with adjustments. So, then you have the argument about whether or not it is even better to have 3 perfect curves in your spine. That is a whole other thing.
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Old 04-17-2012, 12:47 PM   #7
Megan Zetter
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Re: Chiropractic 3 times per week?

Josh, come on. No ethical doctor can say with certainty that a patient needs care 3xwk for a year. Any MD that told a patient that would be laughed off the planet.

You know that there are a multitude of reasons for excessive curvature of the spine and that millions of people are walking around with such a spine and leading happy and healthy lives. The OP, from his limited description, sounds as though he has mechanical low back pain. And this type of LBP can easily be treated without any adjustments at all.

As with all things in life the true answer lies somewhere in between. Could the OP benefit from adjustments? Probably, but are they necessary at a tune of 3k for a year? Highly unlikely.

The chiropractor he saw is in the business for money, not to help people. He knows that no one in their right mind is going to stick to that treatment plan. Unless of course they don't work, don't have a family, don't have hobbies, don't like to travel, etc. He gets 3k upfront and knows the patient will, in all likelihood, drop out of care after a few months, if not sooner. It's a perfect situation for the doctor.

Additionally, you know that 3k worth of your work does not equate to 3xwk for a year. That amount of care is worth a heck of a lot more. Simple math: average visit is $50 x's your estimated 150 visits = $7500. It's complete BS!!

As Brian said, that doc should be reported to the board.

You went to Western States, right .... ?
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Old 04-17-2012, 04:06 PM   #8
Josh Bailey
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Re: Chiropractic 3 times per week?

I don't think I mentioned anything about supporting 3x a week for a year in my post. I did support the idea that 3x a week can change a spine if done right, because I’ve seen it done. That is what you get with a little more experience in an office. They don't teach you that in UWS. I know because I did go there. I didn't actually support the argument that it is better for everyone, but presented that as a totally separate topic thus 'So, then you have the argument about whether or not it is even better to have 3 perfect curves in your spine. That is a whole other thing.' I even pre-empted my statement with 'That does sound like a lot' referring to the amount of visits.
There are many people, you are right, without perfect curves in their spines who function very well. I personally know some crossfit firebreathers who have nasty looking spines on a radiograph but, no pain or problems.
On the other hand, there are people with scoliosis and anterior head carriage that have a TON of issues including self-esteem and aesthetic ones. And honestly, if you had a young patient with severe anterior head carriage and you didn't send them to someone who could fix it before it progressed as they get older, what kind of service are you doing them, because in your short experience as a practicing chiropractor you don't believe in chiropractors who try to fix that can. I would encourage you to branch out a bit and check out the research for yourself that CBP puts out there. Go visit a CBP doc and ask if you can see for yourself their results. The space where you grow exists where you challenge your beliefs not where you remain comfortable with what you know.
Plus, don’t compare yourself to an MD, it’s a totally different philosophy. You go to their office and you get 1 of 3 things: drugs, surgery, or a referral. None of which involve more than a visit or recheck and usually have nothing to do with the real cause of most problems like lifestyle choices, postures, exercise, or diet.
All that said, there is a different type of Chiropractor out there, who treats people at 3x a week for 36 visits or even more and has evidence to support what they are doing as well as the results to prove that what they told you they would do, they did. I don't think that kind of Chiropractor needs to reported to anyone for doing something wrong unless, as I posted also, ‘they are trying to do it solely with adjustments’ and when it is over they didn’t give you what they promised.
Megan, you sound like a smart doctor. I have seen other advice you give on here that sounds very well…sound. I just think you are doing a lot of assuming here. The whole money equation thing for one. Also, that without knowing this doctor or their technique and hearing about their recommendations from a patient who might not totally understand their condition you are bashing another chiropractor. The simple answer is, it isn’t that simple. Not to mention you haven’t done an exam or consult with this man and you are giving him advice on a message board (could be in trouble here, might have done that before also). Honestly you are pretty fresh out of school aren’t you? Leaving me to believe that with a little more experience in different types of patients and other techniques besides Diversified Western States, that you will find that ‘true answer in between’. Good luck with that.
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Old 04-17-2012, 05:38 PM   #9
Megan Zetter
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Re: Chiropractic 3 times per week?

Any technique that requires x-rays will never make it into my tool bag. Ever. Yes, I'm a new grad and while I agree that experience will further my education, my foundation is solid and I know BS when I see it. I don't need to experience it to confirm it.

I'm sure I will have patients that require multiple visits per week over a course of many weeks, but to say with certainty that someone needs X number of visits from day one is crap. Experience will certainly help me determine how quickly or slowly certain injuries/complaints respond. However, the person and their health, motivation, etc play a huge factor in treatment response. You can't give recipe treatments to everyone. Our work is art, not technique and protocol driven.

At any rate, it's fine that we disagree and I'm sure you help many people, but my beliefs and my education have lead me to the way I currently practice and I'm very proud of what I do for people.
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Last edited by Megan Zetter; 04-17-2012 at 05:49 PM..
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Old 04-17-2012, 06:00 PM   #10
Brian Strump
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Re: Chiropractic 3 times per week?

Josh had some valid points on severe scoliosis, and CBP, although I also thing there are some valid arguments against the "ideal" curves. However, many, many more chiros just adjust, heat, muscle stim, and maybe intersegmental traction and move onto the next sucker willing to pay $4k for a year.

Was there any discussion about if you don't improve? What would the chiro do then, if anything? What if you progressively got worse under care? Is your $4k out the door? Was there any talk of rehab? What if you got better faster than the doctor expects?

Here's a easy tip for you. If you're chiro is part of this cult, (http://maximizedliving.com/) WFS, then get the F*&# of there quick. The great majority are lunatics, pushing God, blah, blah blah. They may have a sign in the office that says they are the chiropractor for the Olympics Games...you know how you get that? Pay for it. Most top athletes have their own people.
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