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Old 08-23-2006, 06:01 AM   #61
Barry Cooper
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Jay,

I see no reason to take away from what you are saying. It seems likely that Matt Larson has received a lot of AAR's that in effect said: your training helped us. If the question is: "is MAC useless or harmful", then the answer is a definite NO. Even if unaltered, it is a training asset which has almost certainly saved lives. I think everyone would agree with that.

What does not follow from this are the following conclusions: it is perfect; it is superior in all ways to other systems; it is taught and applied uniformly well; it is applicable in all situations; other systems would not do as well or better.

I think it is both helpful and accurate to consider all systems as incomplete in some way. If I view myself as a system, there is a literal infinity of things I don't know. All I can do is try and learn something new every day the rest of my life, and try not to forget what I learned yesterday.

You believe strongly in this system, because you have reason to believe it has been combat tested. This is understandable, and it seems clear enough to me that this program is likely a quantum leap forward relative to some of the other karate-based programs that have been taught before.

At the same time, who can seriously argue that Krav Maga--or it's precursors which had different names I'm forgetting at the moment--hasn't been tested in the essentially continuous violence in Israel from roughly the 20's through today?

As I understand it, they too emphasize repeated, natural movement practiced at full or close-to-full speed.

Couple ideas that occur to me: if access to weapons is a problem, what about stowing something in your sleeve, or somewhere you can get to it quickly?
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Old 08-23-2006, 07:34 AM   #62
Lynne Pitts
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Kris, Apparently you have lost track but the title of the topic is "Krav maga in ufc or pride?" and my point is NOT debatable.
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Old 08-23-2006, 08:06 AM   #63
Jamie Clark
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I dont want to get mixed up in the X vs. Y thing, but just to clarify one thing. I worked at the Combatives lab at Fort Benning for a while, and I think that MAC is being painted as all ground fighting and that isnt the case. The foundation of MAC is BJJ because its relatively easy to teach and to learn and it can be practiced at full speed pretty much anywhere. Keep in mind that this also has to be taught to hundereds of thousands of soldiers in a short amount of time initially because there are dozens of tasks that the military deems as more important from shooting to land navigation. But its important to realize that MAC combines elements of BJJ, wrestling, Judo, Boxing, Muay Thai, Kali, and other martial arts. Another large part of MAC is instilling the warrior spirit in soldiers. Believe it or not, not all soldiers are bad a$$es, actually a large percentage have never been in a fight. MAC unit training and competitions help foster the warrior spirit in these soldiers. There is a video of Matt Larson talking about MAC on Google video. Its a training film, but the first 3 or 4 minutes he talks about the program. Here's the link:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1462151077277855734&q=military+com bative s&hl=en
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Old 08-23-2006, 09:33 AM   #64
Jeff Martin
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Jamie,
Thanks for the link. I've seen it. I want to be clear that in no way by defending KM was I denigrating the MAC system. The description given by Matt Larson in the video again sounds exactly like KM, including the styles it was derived from and training methodology. In fact I would say that fostering the warrior spirit had better be an important part of any reality based martial arts program and a stated goal of the program. The system sounds great, but Jay didn't need to tear down KM to make his case. He could have just related the facts in a straight forward and sensible way, as you did.

Larry,
Your point about Inasanto was great. My Sifu wouldn't let us test for a black belt unless we had trained elsewhere, which lead me to boxing, BJJ, Muay Thai and eventually Krav Maga. I think if you are secure in what you teach and who you are you have know problem having your students go out and experience other arts. (Besides they bring back really cool stuff you can incorporate)

Back to the topic:
The standard answer for why you don't see KM practioners in the UFC is not because "my art is so deadly I'm afraid to use it in the ring" but rather what the empahsis on training is. The time I spend training gun techniques, stick techniques, knives, multiple attackers, etc., etc. etc. My opponent is training single mindedly for the ring.
Now I'd make the point that if I stepped into the ring with a ring fighter, I would be at a disadvantage, but the counter point would also be true. When faced with a self defense situation, my training would have the advantage.

All that having been said, KM has been represented in some smaller bouts.
Among others, the president of KMAA John Whitman won, I believe it was 5 rounds, kickboxing match a couple of years ago even though he broke his arm in the third round.
I believe Steve Jimenez, a KM instructor, won the IFC US Heavyweight Championship last October.
I'm sure I could find more if I looked.
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Old 08-23-2006, 10:15 AM   #65
Albert Clayton
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This is a great statement.

Larry,
Your point about Inasanto was great. My Sifu wouldn't let us test for a black belt unless we had trained elsewhere, which lead me to boxing, BJJ, Muay Thai and eventually Krav Maga. I think if you are secure in what you teach and who you are you have know problem having your students go out and experience other arts. (Besides they bring back really cool stuff you can incorporate)

Now read what Lindenman said about Inosanto.

This is a great thread on Martial arts.

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Old 08-23-2006, 10:47 AM   #66
Peter Queen
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Here's a real life scenario just right for this thread. Just goes to show that you really can apply hand-to-to hand combat training in real life.http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0%2C1...5431%2C00.html
just saw this on the Community board posted by Daniel Fannin, I figured it should be here too.:lol:

Oh and yeah, the marine likes the usefull art of kettlebells.
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Old 08-23-2006, 11:02 AM   #67
Jamie Clark
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Jeff,

I dont know alot about KM, but it sounds from the posts here that it and MAC are probably more alike than different. Sounds like we're all talking about taking the best from different styles and combining them. Another tool in the toolkit. Good stuff...
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Old 08-23-2006, 12:07 PM   #68
Jeff Martin
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Actually Peter, its an example of MCMAP never working.:lol:
Jamie,
If you ever find yourself stranded in Americas Finest City please visit us. Would like the opportunity to see a little MAC up close and personal.
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Old 08-23-2006, 12:12 PM   #69
Jamie Clark
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You got it.
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Old 08-23-2006, 12:57 PM   #70
Peter Queen
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Jeff, Ouch! It may have been a bit of a stretch but hey, at least it got your attention.:lol:
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