CrossFit Discussion Board  

Go Back   CrossFit Discussion Board > CrossFit Forum > Fitness
CrossFit Home Forum Site Rules CrossFit FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-28-2011, 05:01 PM   #41
Chris Mason
Banned Chris Mason is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Charlottesville  VA
Posts: 4,708
Re: Conjugate Method vs. Linear Progression

One more point about Westside and CrossFit. Westside is NOT just for powerlifting. Westside is strength training and can be adapted to any sport. CrossFitters SHOULD strength train to augment their CF abilities (which means strength train with the focus being on getting stronger without getting bigger).
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2011, 10:09 AM   #42
Greg Pellegrini
Member Greg Pellegrini is offline
 
Greg Pellegrini's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Boston  MA
Posts: 155
Re: Conjugate Method vs. Linear Progression

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Fabsik View Post
I do find it interesting that a lot of people worry about the complexity of Westside. But it is definitely less complex than starting out a CF program which introduces you to a zillion movements in just a couple weeks. When I first started doing CF stuff, over 1/2 of my wods were scaled not only in weight or rounds, but also exercise. So if you are a CF'er, approaching Westside isn't different in that aspect.
That's very true, but unless you are in a weightlifting oriented gym your going to be limited with equipment for Westside. Most gyms set for the general public do not have bands, chains, lifting platforms, safety squats bars, or reverse hypers. Crossfit uses a wide variety of equipment as well, but 90% of it can be found in almost every globo. At the same time though, general public gyms are usually not well suited for circuit training programs like Crossfit. So I guess my point is both programs probably work smoother when they are in there proper environment.

I guess LP is the most versatile in a sense then because it can work smoothly in almost any gym facility as long as there is enough barbells to go around.

Not trying to bash conjugate, Westside, or CF, just comparing the pros and cons of each program in a globo type gym.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2011, 10:22 AM   #43
Robert Fabsik
Member Robert Fabsik is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Kildeer  IL
Posts: 2,233
Re: Conjugate Method vs. Linear Progression

You don't need all the equipment to do Westside. Use the prinicipals. Without bands/chains or a reverse hyper you can still do it.

A ME cycle could be: Front Squat/Arched Back Good Morning/Rack Pulls/Squat of you stance choice.

For hamstrings and lower back instead of using the reverse hyper do romanian deadlifts, due good mornings. Back extensions. Do leg curls.

The equipment add an element of variety but is not necessary, only suggested.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2011, 12:41 PM   #44
Tim Nakashima
Member Tim Nakashima is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Bakersfield  CA
Posts: 712
Re: Conjugate Method vs. Linear Progression

As Robert posted above, you can do westside/conjugate program with minimal equipment. Shoot, just doing high bar, low bar and front squats you have 3 different options. Add a box and you have 6 options. Change the box height to above parallel, at parallel, and below parallel and you have even more options. Mix in a multitude of deadlift variations (regular, deficit, sumo, ultra wide sumo, romanian, snatch grip) and there's some more options. Basically, the possibilities are endless.

As for speed work, yes bands or chains are recommended, but straight bar weight can be substituted until you save up $15-20 and buy a set of bands here: HERE (WFS)

I honestly don't see any excuses why somebody wouldn't give it a shot.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2011, 12:46 PM   #45
Eric A. Brown
Member Eric A. Brown is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: New York  NY
Posts: 226
Re: Conjugate Method vs. Linear Progression

There was a time when Westside did not use chains or bands or any form of accommodating resistance. Louie's team still did well.

Really, what makes Westside great, in my opinion, is the fact that it is constantly evolving.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2011, 01:28 PM   #46
Kane Greene
Affiliate Kane Greene is offline
 
Kane Greene's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Fairbanks  AK
Posts: 164
Re: Conjugate Method vs. Linear Progression

I like both the linear progression and the conjugate method. At my affiliate we have a strength program that is to be done in addition to the WOD. We break it down into level 1 and level 2. We start people with the linear progression and have them work it hard for 3-9 months and then move into the level 2.

Which do I believe is superior? Conjugate/WestSide Methods

I believe you can get brutally strong following just about any strength program as long as you are consistent, motivated, and put in the time. I think the key to that is finding a program that you enjoy. And training with the conjugate/westside method is about as fun as it gets. Seriously, how can you get bored constantly changing exercises. Even assistance exercises are rotated every few weeks.

The other thing I love about it is the fact that it isn't just for powerlifting. You can adapt it to anything. Being a CrossFitter I care about more than just dead, squat, bench. I want big O lifts, and I want to be strong with gymnastic movements. You can blend dynamic or isometric gymnastic movements into the program as assistance work. I think most people fail to realize that spending time on strict muscle ups, planche work, handstands, front levers, etc.. WILL carryover to all of your upper body lifts. You can find examples all the time of gymnasts with no lifting experience being able to bench 2 x bodyweight.

As CrossFitters I really don't see how anyone would go any other way than conjugate. WestSide/Conjugate is the CrossFit of strength training. Constantly varied.......

For me doing the same sets by reps of squats, deads, power cleans, bench, whatever is so boring it makes me want to drive my head through the wall.


BUT, I do believe the linear progression is superior for novices. I get tons of people who have never done an airsquat and don't even know what a barbell looks like.

Someone else said it and I'll second it. Most people(especially women) don't really know what "HEAVY" is. They think everything is heavy. They will do a set of 5 with something they could probably do 20 with and say it's heavy. With the linear progression and adding 5lbs everytime they squat will force them to realize what heavy is and slowly work into heavy lifting. It also is easier to realize progress when they look at the squat and realize they've added 40lbs to working weight in a month!

I believe constant repetition of the core lifts is also the best way establish proper technique. After following a linear progression for 3-9 months they are ready to roll right into my conjugate program.

I think that starting with linear will lead to more gains in the long run. Get comfortable with the lifts, get a foundation of strength, and move to conjugate.

Again I think that the linear progression should just be used as a stepping stone to conjugate programming. If there is one thing Louie has inspired me to do, it's read. I order about 5-6 books at a time on all kinds of training. A lot of the info can be discarded, but just finding a nugget or two of information from another coach can go a LONNNNGGG WAY!
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2011, 09:26 AM   #47
Greg Pellegrini
Member Greg Pellegrini is offline
 
Greg Pellegrini's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Boston  MA
Posts: 155
Re: Conjugate Method vs. Linear Progression

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Nakashima View Post
As for speed work, yes bands or chains are recommended, but straight bar weight can be substituted until you save up $15-20 and buy a set of bands here: HERE (WFS)
One band is like $15 -20. The set is $80. Still this is much cheaper than buying from an equipment dealer like Rogue/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kane Greene View Post
Again I think that the linear progression should just be used as a stepping stone to conjugate programming. If there is one thing Louie has inspired me to do, it's read. I order about 5-6 books at a time on all kinds of training. A lot of the info can be discarded, but just finding a nugget or two of information from another coach can go a LONNNNGGG WAY!
Kane, any suggestions on reading outside of Simmons's Required Reading List from the CFJ article?
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2011, 10:33 AM   #48
Tim Nakashima
Member Tim Nakashima is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Bakersfield  CA
Posts: 712
Re: Conjugate Method vs. Linear Progression

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Pellegrini View Post
One band is like $15 -20. The set is $80. Still this is much cheaper than buying from an equipment dealer like Rogue/
It's $15-20 for a PAIR of bands. That's less than half price! And the guy will work deals if you want more than one set of bands. I wouldn't recommend the $80 set anyway. All you really need are the minis, lights and averages ($60 minus whatever discount he'll give, shipping included).

How many bands do you think you need to get started doing speed/band work? Guys are complaining it's too expensive to buy bands/chains to do this Conjugate stuff where no gyms have the proper equipment.

All I'm saying is you can buy one set of bands for $15-20 to get started. Use them for speed work (squats, deads, bench, press, whatever) and you can also throw them on the bar and max out with them. Suddenly you've got DE and ME covered with one set of bands. Granted, one set of bands is not ideal for everything, but it's a start.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2011, 04:56 PM   #49
Robert Fabsik
Member Robert Fabsik is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Kildeer  IL
Posts: 2,233
Re: Conjugate Method vs. Linear Progression

Just jumping in with Tim. For home gym people, didn't you have to buy a barbell, rack, bumpers, rings etc? All of those are much more expensive than bands. A set of chains is more, but I wonder if you hunted around locally could find some without the need for shipping. (I'd stay away from anything smaller the 1/2", and 5/8" is probably a better starting point)

For those who work out in a gym, don't you pay a monthly membership? I imagine that costs more than a pair of bands.

Yeah, it's a pain to shell out money, but the diversity you get from a set of bands is pretty good compared to a lot of other pieces of equipment. It add variants to max effort work, it helps with dynamic work and is great for rehab work and good to travel with too.

And don't say a box is too hard to get. Either pile up your bumpers to form a box or buy a 12" valve box and then pile mats or bumpers on to it to get proper height.

It would be different if Louie/Conjugate said the only way to train is by doing 70 reverse hypers a day, 40 glute ham raise followed by an hour rotating between the belt squat machine and plyo swing. But 99% of his program is basic lifts.

When I went to the cert, Louie basically had racks, various bars, a pile of dumbells (literally laying all over the floor), reverse hypers, 1 glute ham, a hip belt machine, a plyo swing and then maybe 2 or 3 machines for back/cable work. I imagine laymen off the street would think it wasn't a good gym compared to your loco globo. It wasn't polished, it wasn't shiny, but they made it work. Heck if all you had was a barbell and a set of bumpers, you could still do a Conjugate program for strenght, it might be tough to do for the intent of powerlifting.
  Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2011, 07:11 PM   #50
Chris Mason
Banned Chris Mason is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Charlottesville  VA
Posts: 4,708
Re: Conjugate Method vs. Linear Progression

Bands are the best value and most useful thing you will ever get for your training.
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Intermediate Linear Progression + Conditioning Trey Williams Fitness 20 07-05-2011 12:58 PM
Linear Progression + Tumbling Mac Oneill Fitness 4 03-02-2011 09:03 PM
Conjugate Method and WODs Troy Becker Fitness 94 12-07-2010 02:03 PM
linear progression hugh driscoll Fitness 27 04-12-2010 04:32 PM
Linear Progression Jakub Kruhlik Starting 4 07-30-2008 11:04 AM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:14 PM.


CrossFit is a registered trademark of CrossFit Inc.