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Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

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Old 08-10-2011, 08:34 AM   #61
Eric A. Brown
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Re: Defranco on Crossfit for Athletes

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Originally Posted by adam adkins View Post
And actually now that I think about it the training for hockey and weightlifting aren't as different as you may think.

Again, the goal is to develop strength and power. That goal is the same whether you are an oly lifter or a hockey player. The difference is in the ultimate goal. The ultimate goal of a hockey player is to be a better hockey player. The goal of a oly lifter is to C&J and snatch as much weight as possible.

So if you boil it down, the methods of building strength and power are virtually identical in either athlete. And both athletes will spend substantial time perfecting their respective craft. Obviously the skill sessions of each athletes training is very specific but that not what we are discussing here.

Yeah, ya' know, after spending 20 years as a hockey player and 30 years as a strength athlete, nearly every practice was identical.

Nah, not really.

Guess which sport I had to focus on being stronger for? Guess which one I did not have to worry about how long my shift was on the ice? If I had enough endurance to make it through a lifting session and successfully complete a much lower volume of work than an average hockey practice, which was normally about 2.5 times the length, well, I think everyone but you sees my point.

Allow me to put in another way:

How many athletes of different disciplines have you produced using the same training method for all of them?
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Old 08-10-2011, 08:34 AM   #62
Eric A. Brown
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Re: Defranco on Crossfit for Athletes

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Originally Posted by Andrew James View Post
So in other words, you didn't like Eric's original question, so you answered a different one.

Pretty much. When all else fails, move the goals posts.
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Old 08-10-2011, 08:55 AM   #63
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: Defranco on Crossfit for Athletes

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Originally Posted by adam adkins View Post
No. My point has been and remains that the methods of developing strength and power are virtually identical for all mainstream athletes.

Each athlete will have different sport specific requirement. Plus, those sport specific requirements will affect the intensity in which you can pursue development of strength and power. As I have said, some athletes will have inherent problems often associate with certain body types that gravitate to certain sports which can also change the way you develop strength and power.

Obviously each sport requires a different skill set and practicing the required skill set places a different demand on the body. That demand determines how the athlete can attack developing strength and power and the specific sport determines the point of diminishing returns on strength and power. Nonetheless, the methods are virtually identical.
So they're identical, except when they're not?

Sure, lots of athletes can benefit from doing power cleans. But two programs can include power cleans without being "identical" in any meaningful sense.

Katherine
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Old 08-10-2011, 08:57 AM   #64
adam adkins
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Re: Defranco on Crossfit for Athletes

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Originally Posted by Katherine Derbyshire View Post
So they're identical, except when they're not?
Yes, this.
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Old 08-10-2011, 08:58 AM   #65
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: Defranco on Crossfit for Athletes

In theory, theory and practice are the same.

In practice, they are not.

Katherine
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Old 08-10-2011, 09:06 AM   #66
Alex Europa
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Re: Defranco on Crossfit for Athletes

OK, can we PLEASE drop the discussion of fringe athletes (OL, powerlifting, marathoners, etc...)? It is really derailing the conversation. OBVIOUSLY they have VERY specific demands on their body...much more specific than a football player, baseball player, or soccer player.

With that being said...

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Originally Posted by Mark Boyle View Post
For a football player, this would be the work done off the field to improve strength and speed as well as injury prevention/correcting imbalances etc.
How does a well-structured piece of CrossFit programming, used for 4-12 weeks prior to the start of SPP work, not meet this requirement?

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Conditioning in "endurance, strength, speed, flexibility and other basic factors of fitness" doesn't mean the same thing for each sport. The general strength requirements of a rower is going to be very different from the strength requirements of a discus thrower. In BOTH cases, strength training is GPP though.
Just a silly question, what experience with CrossFit do you actually have - other than reading about it on teh interwebz?

- Alex
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Old 08-10-2011, 09:19 AM   #67
adam adkins
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Re: Defranco on Crossfit for Athletes

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Originally Posted by Katherine Derbyshire View Post
In theory, theory and practice are the same.

In practice, they are not.

Katherine
Yeah, exactly. In theory it is just pick up heavy stuff, do some dynamic movements, rest repeat. It is not rocket surgery.

So would I have a midfielder train the same way as an offensive linemen. Well, I would have them pick up heavy stuff, do some dynamic movements, rest and repeat. Would the program look identical? No, but it would be a lot closer than many seem to think.

Look at the way Dwight Howard (magic) trains and now compare that to the way Ray Lewis (ravens) trains. Drastically different, right? Howard trains almost exclusively with light dumbbells and Lewis resembles the training video I posted. But the difference stems from howard's enormous body and freak like wingspan rather than the difference in sports. I stated many times that it is the individual difference rather than sport specific.

Now looking at the sport, developing the skill set in basketball has different requirements than football. Basketball is a sport you practice and football - particularly at lewis' postion - is a sport you prepare for. Therefore, howard's body is under a state of constant stress and thereby limits what he can do in the weightroom. Lewis on the other hand can place greater stress on his body in the weightroom in the offseason because it is his only source of stress.

The added stress on the body limits howard's ability to move and/or recover from maximal efforts in the gym, basketball has a natural selection of longer athletes which limits the ability to move and/or recover maximal efforts, and basketball has a lower point of diminishing returns. Obviously the programs are different.

But as you remove these individual differences and make the athletes more similar and make the exposure to the sport more similar the program becomes virtually identical. Take a 6' high school kid. His programming - whether it be for shortstop, running back, or 2 guard - is and should be the same for virtually every sport.
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Old 08-10-2011, 09:19 AM   #68
Mark Boyle
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Re: Defranco on Crossfit for Athletes

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Originally Posted by Alex Europa View Post
OK, can we PLEASE drop the discussion of fringe athletes (OL, powerlifting, marathoners, etc...)? It is really derailing the conversation. OBVIOUSLY they have VERY specific demands on their body...much more specific than a football player, baseball player, or soccer player.

With that being said...



How does a well-structured piece of CrossFit programming, used for 4-12 weeks prior to the start of SPP work, not meet this requirement?
Uh, there are better ways to improve strength and speed than crossfit. Like say a program that focuses on strength and speed. This goes back to Joe's comments in the link at the start of this thread. Make the "main course" speed training or strength training rather than try to make the "main course" everything.

Quote:
Just a silly question, what experience with CrossFit do you actually have - other than reading about it on teh interwebz?

- Alex
Other than being a regular reader of this site and messing around with a couple of the workouts none (which I'd bet is as much or more than Defranco himself).

P.S. thousands maybe millions of people around the world run marathons. Thousands of people weightlift. These aren't exactly fringe sports.

Last edited by Mark Boyle; 08-10-2011 at 09:26 AM..
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Old 08-10-2011, 09:23 AM   #69
Ewen Roth
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Re: Defranco on Crossfit for Athletes

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Originally Posted by adam adkins View Post
Take a 6' high school kid. His programming - whether it be for shortstop, running back, or 2 guard - is and should be somewhat similar for virtually two or three sports.
Fixed that for you.

But whatevuz.
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Old 08-10-2011, 09:26 AM   #70
adam adkins
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Re: Defranco on Crossfit for Athletes

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Originally Posted by adam adkins View Post
His programming - whether it be for shortstop, running back, or 2 guard - is and should be the same for every sport that anyone cares about.
Fixed it for me.....
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