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Old 12-14-2007, 09:14 PM   #41
Tony Stock
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Re: Clean and Squat Clean - I've got a long way to go

This is great thread.
You are strong as a mule, great work.

Concentrate on two things

- Flexing your lats on your cleans. This will help keep the bar closer to you.

- Make sure the bar grazes your thighs, then your shirt on the way up. By flexing your lats this will happen.

You will have alot more control when this happens and be able to feel much more comfortable with these lifts. It will take the danger aspect out of them.

Go down a few pounds to get the feel of it then hit it hard, like you do.

Remember that technique means alot. I like to feel that cheating on reps is like cheating in a foot race. I can run that mile a lot faster if I cut across the field on the last lap but is that what I train for?
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Old 12-16-2007, 12:58 PM   #42
Lincoln Brigham
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Re: Clean and Squat Clean - I've got a long way to go

Arden,
I'm not sure you've got the "tall" part of tall cleans right in your head. You're doing them more like a continental from the hang, or a hang clean. The purpose of the tall clean is to teach the lifter how to get under the bar after the triple extension has finished - so that's where the tall clean starts. You are starting at the last half of the second pull. A tall clean starts at the extreme END of the second pull, even higher:

Tall Clean

(In this example I'd prefer to see even less dip. But this particular model's fees were reasonable...)

You should be starting so high - on your toes, hips and knees extended, shoulders shrugged - that the pull is not much more than a flicker. Most of the emphasis is on the speed getting to the bottom of the front squat. You have to get there before the bar does. The tall clean is meant to install motor memory of starting the third pull AFTER the hip extension and to instill confidence and speed of the pull under into the full squat. The bar should hardly move.
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Old 12-16-2007, 01:10 PM   #43
Jay Cohen
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Re: Clean and Squat Clean - I've got a long way to go

Lincoln;

Great video.
Thanks.
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Old 12-16-2007, 04:02 PM   #44
Arden Cogar Jr.
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Re: Clean and Squat Clean - I've got a long way to go

Tom,
Thanks so much. That makes perfect sense to me. I'll keep the bell on the midline. I was going to do some stuff tonight and up load it, but I'm exhausted after a weekend of traveling, christmas stuff, and kids galore....if you know what I mean?

I'll videotape my lunchtime session tomorrow and see if I do any better. I'll do my darndest to keep the bell on the midline.

And I've got a lot of work to do on that second to third pull. I'm finally starting to figure something out - when the elbows bend is when the feet move and you start the third pull. I think that's the way I'd describe it?

all the best,
Arden

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Corrigan View Post
Arden,

one thing I noticed from the side view was that you shoulders were directly over the bar, and I've taken a few Oly seminars with Coach Burgener and he always stresses your shoulders in front.

Also, I agree with the cutting the second pull short, and you seem to drop your elbows and do a sort of "cheating reverse curl" to rack the weight - maybe because you are so GD strong that you can curl more than I can clean.... Have you tried the "Burgener Warm up" ? Search the CF site for a full description, but I think the first few pulls with your elbows "high and outside" will help your muscle memory. Coach B had us do this multiple times during his clinics, and most CFers who want to improve in the Oly lifts practice it daily, before every WOD.

I have a video which may help you a bit on your snatch technique. I watched the video you posted a few days ago, and it looks like you're working with the 32kg. First you are folding nicely, turning the hand well and your back swing motion and pull are solid, except for the trajectory. You need to keep it closed to the mid line, not let it drift out to the side. The bell flies a bit sideways around your wrist, pulling your shoulder open. You want to pull the Kb so it travels infront of your chest as it comes up, not let it come out to your shoulder.

This trajectory will make it easier to lockout. The spin around your wrist will be crisper and more compact. Also, you need to have your hand and shoulder at a 45 degree angle (1/2 way between palms forward and palms facing each other) when you lock it out. When you look at the "bell" in the lockout position, it should be behind your forearm, and be seen equally on each side. Do you see how most of the bell is on the inside (i.e. over your head) when you lock out? Locking out at 45 also makes the drop easier, and that need to be more inline.

THIS is the video to watch - I took it at the KB Worlds in Miami. This 200# guy snatched a 70# over 80 times each hand, and that was after jerking a pair of 32s for 141 reps. This view is head on, so you can see what I am talking about.

Work and family safe link

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhuXMFYBq28

My suggestion to you is to drop down a size and hone your technique with a 53# (or even a 44#) KB, and get your KB conditioning from doing 1 am swings for high reps. Sure you could muscle thru it with a 70#er, but you don't need KBs to get strong - you are already so freakin' strong it's scary - the improved technique will allow you to lower the stress on your joints, and will eventually lead to better cardio because you will be able to push yourself to do more reps without the downside of unneeded torque on your joints.

Hope this helps,

Tom
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Old 12-16-2007, 04:06 PM   #45
Arden Cogar Jr.
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Re: Clean and Squat Clean - I've got a long way to go

Tony,
That makes complete sense. Keeping my lats tight has always been hard for me. When I do it right, I feel like I've been doing tricep pushdowns and nautilus pull overs, or dumbell pullovers, for several sets of 20 to 30. I'm wicked pumped up. I did NOT feel like that during my last session - which was one I was very disappointed with in regards to how I was moving and how I was moving the weights.

I'm completely backing off this week and working on the transition from the 2nd 3rd pull and the third pull.

Thanks to everyone for your assistance.

All the best,
Arden

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Stock View Post
This is great thread.
You are strong as a mule, great work.

Concentrate on two things

- Flexing your lats on your cleans. This will help keep the bar closer to you.

- Make sure the bar grazes your thighs, then your shirt on the way up. By flexing your lats this will happen.

You will have alot more control when this happens and be able to feel much more comfortable with these lifts. It will take the danger aspect out of them.

Go down a few pounds to get the feel of it then hit it hard, like you do.

Remember that technique means alot. I like to feel that cheating on reps is like cheating in a foot race. I can run that mile a lot faster if I cut across the field on the last lap but is that what I train for?
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Old 12-16-2007, 04:10 PM   #46
Brandon Oto
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Re: Clean and Squat Clean - I've got a long way to go

In one instant, you should be fully extended at knees, hips, ankles, and shoulders. This is the end of the second pull.

In the next instant, you should be off the ground, with your feet moving outward, your knees should be bending, your shoulders are back down, your hips are flexing, and your arms are bending and elbows whipping round as you pull yourself under. This is the start of the third pull.

It's ALL synched. There's no guitar solo in the background here.
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Old 12-16-2007, 04:11 PM   #47
Arden Cogar Jr.
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Re: Clean and Squat Clean - I've got a long way to go

Lincoln,
You are absolutely right. I didn't have the "tall" part of tall cleans right in my head until you explained it and posted the link. I finally got quicktime on my computer at home so I could watch the video links that Allen posted last week. I've since put that on my favorites list. I've added your video to my favorites as well. I plan on doing some real "tall cleans" tomorrow and hope I have a better go it now that I have a much better understanding. I must add that getting my body to do the movement as depicted in the video is a lot easier said than done.

Wish me luck on this one. I'm boldly going where I've never gone before......

All the best,
Arden



Quote:
Originally Posted by Lincoln Brigham View Post
Arden,
I'm not sure you've got the "tall" part of tall cleans right in your head. You're doing them more like a continental from the hang, or a hang clean. The purpose of the tall clean is to teach the lifter how to get under the bar after the triple extension has finished - so that's where the tall clean starts. You are starting at the last half of the second pull. A tall clean starts at the extreme END of the second pull, even higher:

Tall Clean

(In this example I'd prefer to see even less dip. But this particular model's fees were reasonable...)

You should be starting so high - on your toes, hips and knees extended, shoulders shrugged - that the pull is not much more than a flicker. Most of the emphasis is on the speed getting to the bottom of the front squat. You have to get there before the bar does. The tall clean is meant to install motor memory of starting the third pull AFTER the hip extension and to instill confidence and speed of the pull under into the full squat. The bar should hardly move.
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Old 12-17-2007, 06:29 AM   #48
Peter Terry Haas
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Re: Clean and Squat Clean - I've got a long way to go

Um, I'm going to go ahead and respectfully disagree w/ some of the advice given on the tall clean and specifically the aspect of coming up on the toes.

I practice and teach jumping from a flat footed position. I feel like you get better hip extension. To do this, you have to actively dorsiflex w/ the anterior tibialis when you "jump" (use your shin muscles to pull your toes toward your shin). Try it out. With PVC or an empty bar, come up to the top of your second pull on flat feet. Pay attention to how your quads, glutes, hamstrings, and low back feel. Now do the same thing while coming up onto the toes. When I do this, I feel like I'm not getting full engagement of the musculature, especially the quads. I also feel slightly off balance.

When I started incorporating jumping from flat feet, the power of my pulls immediately shot up. Not only that, but your feet move from jumping to landing faster since you don't have to worry about coming "up" with the feet.

WFS of Shane Hamman doing a C&J. You can only see his left foot, but you'll notice minimal if any extension at the ankle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqgGh_fOTCM

I also prefer to do tall cleans more like this. This WFS link to the Performance Menu has you start standing tall but flat footed, and you initiate the movement with a powerful shrug.

Give it a shot. See what feels better to you. If it works for you, great. If not, don't worry about it.

PS. I also disagree with a full upward shrug of the shoulders into the ears. I don't think its efficient nor does it really happen in an actual clean. If you want me to elaborate I will, but I mainly wanted to address the points about coming up on the toe and the tall clean.
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Old 12-17-2007, 07:39 AM   #49
Arden Cogar Jr.
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Re: Clean and Squat Clean - I've got a long way to go

Thanks Brandon,
I'm getting the idea. Now if I can only do it? Today, I'm going to give it a go after I do some crazy kettlebell stuff.

All the best,
Arden

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Oto View Post
In one instant, you should be fully extended at knees, hips, ankles, and shoulders. This is the end of the second pull.

In the next instant, you should be off the ground, with your feet moving outward, your knees should be bending, your shoulders are back down, your hips are flexing, and your arms are bending and elbows whipping round as you pull yourself under. This is the start of the third pull.

It's ALL synched. There's no guitar solo in the background here.
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Old 12-17-2007, 07:41 AM   #50
Arden Cogar Jr.
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Re: Clean and Squat Clean - I've got a long way to go

Thanks Peter,
Randy Hauer has told me the same thing. I'm going to try it today. I'll get some video footage up shortly. I'm not going over my bodyweight today. I may do more sets than I normally do, but I really think I need to do this at this point.

All the best,
Arden

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Terry Haas View Post
Um, I'm going to go ahead and respectfully disagree w/ some of the advice given on the tall clean and specifically the aspect of coming up on the toes.

I practice and teach jumping from a flat footed position. I feel like you get better hip extension. To do this, you have to actively dorsiflex w/ the anterior tibialis when you "jump" (use your shin muscles to pull your toes toward your shin). Try it out. With PVC or an empty bar, come up to the top of your second pull on flat feet. Pay attention to how your quads, glutes, hamstrings, and low back feel. Now do the same thing while coming up onto the toes. When I do this, I feel like I'm not getting full engagement of the musculature, especially the quads. I also feel slightly off balance.

When I started incorporating jumping from flat feet, the power of my pulls immediately shot up. Not only that, but your feet move from jumping to landing faster since you don't have to worry about coming "up" with the feet.

WFS of Shane Hamman doing a C&J. You can only see his left foot, but you'll notice minimal if any extension at the ankle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqgGh_fOTCM

I also prefer to do tall cleans more like this. This WFS link to the Performance Menu has you start standing tall but flat footed, and you initiate the movement with a powerful shrug.

Give it a shot. See what feels better to you. If it works for you, great. If not, don't worry about it.

PS. I also disagree with a full upward shrug of the shoulders into the ears. I don't think its efficient nor does it really happen in an actual clean. If you want me to elaborate I will, but I mainly wanted to address the points about coming up on the toe and the tall clean.
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