The Shogun/Machida debate

[Rafe Kelley]

I am one of the few I guess who say it for Machida. It could have been called 48-47 one way or the other and I think it would have been fair.

It comes down to three issues.

How do you score the advantage of leg kicks shogun had over Machida's advantage in meaningfull hand strikes.

How limited was Machida by the damage from the leg kicks, how much damage did the couple times machida rocked shogun do.

How do you judge the many many exchanges were one fighter landed at the same time the other fighter landed a counter.

The first 3 rounds were the best technical fight I have seen in MMA, both guys need better Cardio especially machida. I have never seen so many perfectly timed counters so many crisp exchanges such strategic fight.

This was how I saw it

Round 1 Machida 10-9
Due to advantage in the couple meaningfull exchanges
Round 2 10-10
Shogun better leg kicks
Machida better upper body strikes
Round 3 10-9 Machida rocked Shogun had couple exchanges with clear advantage
Round four 10-10
Shogun seemed to have advantage but slowed down machida landed a couple meaningfull shots
Round 5 Shogun 10-9
Machida looked tired hesitant Shogun moving forward landing consistently but not enough to put the fight away.


I think Shogun came in with the right skill set and game plan to take Machida down leg kicks, leg kicks leg kicks, Machida doesn't want to fight that war. However he wasn't able to take capitalize on that leg kick advantage to get off in any other element of the game he never started landing really meanginfull hand strikes never got a good clinch and failed to take machida down. Despite the leg kicks Machida was still good hand strikes the whole fight, and still counter almost every strike shogun threw.

I think to really win that fight in the last couple rounds shogun needed to show more aggression and start head hunting a bit or go for take downs, machida was tired and vulnerable but shogun did not do enough to take it from him.

I think these are the two best Light Heavies around and I think the next fight will be even better. If machida is able to improve his leg kick defense I think he still is just a smidge better technically and just a tiny bit quicker overall and will catch Shogun at somepoint. If Machida can't fix the leg kick problem Shogun will gain confidence and become more agressive and eventually hurt machida with hands or clinch.

Rogan sucked big time he simple missed the many many counter both fighters landed and to my eyes saw hand exchanges as more even then they were. He seemed to fall into the trap of seeing anything short of dominance for Machida as win for the other fighter.

[Sunny Norwood]

After watching that fight, it just confirms what I've been told before - you get what you get when you leave it up to the judges' decisions. When neither fighter can finish, they submit to the judges. Why would you lay off in the final round just because your corner said you pretty much won the fight? It isn't reasonable to expect the judges to have the same perspective as your corner. Play smart, score big, but always keep an mind for the finish.

[Celio Silva]

I finally watched the fight last night and in my eyes the only round that is debatable is round 1. Round 2 & 3 clearly go to Machida and round 4 & 5 even more clearly go to Shogun. I gave round 1 to Shogun, but it was indeed close. So in the american way of judging fights Shogun won by 48-47 in my book.

Now, the bottom line is that poor scoring system and even worse judging aside, Shogun undoubtely & soundly beat Machida. In short, he inflicted more damage and controled the fight.

This is an absolute disaster for the sport. Shogun dosen't take his belt home to his wife and to-be-born baby girl after months of hard training and a beautifully-fought fight. Machida is booed, highly criticized & questioned, and takes home a belt that isn't his. Fans all around the world are extremely disappointed. I came very very close to putting down $25 on Shogun, and would have been FURIOUS to be robbed of that plus the $150 I would have made from it! (the line was 6-1!!!)

[Leon Robotham]

I agree with Oliver, you need to start watching the fights with no volume. Rogan's a mentalist and his craic just paints the wrong picture.

Nobody else here score this a draw? Seriously, it can't be just me who thinks that.

[Steven Low]

If you take out all of the leg kicks, and only count body and head blows Shogun wins 3-2. Then when you add the leg kicks back in.....

To the person who said not enough damage? You did see Machida limping around in rounds 4 and 5 didn't you?

I personally would've scored it 49-46 for Shogun, but I can see 48-47 Shogun. I honestly can't believe that they gave it unanimous to Machida. It's clear who did more damage and was the aggressor for most of the fight.

Disgusting judging.

On Sherdog there's a poll... 90% Shogun, 10% Machida wfs
http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f2/eve...-here-1072289/

Stats and opinions on the fight. Pretty much EVERYONE (MMA sites AND journalists) gave Shogun the win. Plus, a HUGEEEE list of actual MMA fighters. wfs
http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f2/all...links-1072966/

[Ken DaSilva]

Peoples Defends Controversial Scoring (wfs)

I'm with the Rua won crowd, but I can see how it turned out the way that it did. MMA judges still aren't experienced enough in scoring MMA (or they are too influenced by boxing, K1, etc).

Peoples hangs his hat on what he felt were more damaging punches by Machida and what he saw as blocked shots. I couldn't disagree more. Aggression, Ring Control, Effective Striking, were all for the most part to Rua's advantage in minimally 3 of the rounds.

There's another article on Yahoo! Sports that suggests making the scoring known immediately.

...but with MMA regulated by the same state commissions that regulate boxing, it doesn't appear that the ten-point must system is going anywhere anytime soon.

But a small change in the way fights are run could make a huge difference in the way fights are fought. Currently, judges round-by-round scores are kept secret until the end of the fight. This does nothing but cause conjecture and confusion, as was shown in the light heavyweight title fight between Machida and Mauricio "Shogun" Rua. Why not post the judges scores between rounds?

Few other sports require their athletes to muddle through blindly, wondering if they are winning. When working on ninth-inning strategy in the World Series, Yankees manager Joe Girardi will know if his team is in the lead.

This isn't new to combat sports, either. Wrestlers and judo players know the scores of their matches. Even Olympic boxing has a posted score.

Posting scores at the end of each round would not only be good for the fighters. Their corners would also benefit. Instead of focusing on the question, "Did my fighter win the round?" they could strategize, see what their fighter is doing right or wrong, and use the very short time in between rounds to relay strategy. No time would be wasted on telling a fighter if he or she won the round when the judges opinion would be clear.

Posting scores between rounds would not cure everything that ails MMA judging and refereeing. However, it's an easy change that could clear up any confusion that fighters and coaches have during a fight.

Not sure if I'm sold on this. It seems pretty reasonable. It would change fights, probably for the better. It could also get in some fighter's heads. It would cause earlier and more frequent "crowd reactions" that could theoretically, end up influencing the final score. (All speculation, but somethings gotta change!)

[Chris Lampe]

As we were watching the fight I kept complaining to my wife that Rogan was being very one-sided in his commentary and that Machida was landing a lot of punches in the first rounds. When the fight ended and Machida was announced the winner the first thing out of my mouth was "Shogun got robbed!!". The next day I watched it again with an objective eye to scoring it (rather than just enjoying the show...which is my M.O.) and concluded that I'd give Machida rounds 1,2 and 3 and Rua rounds 4 and 5. If it went the other way I wouldn't complain because we basically got to see what I've heard described as "the most technically perfect fight in MMA history" put on by two very talented, very motivated and very well-matched opponents. I was a big Machida fan going into the fight and now I'm also a big Rua fan. I can't wait to see the rematch!!!!

[Ken DaSilva]

Originally Posted by Chris Lampe

As we were watching the fight I kept complaining to my wife that Rogan was being very one-sided in his commentary and that Machida was landing a lot of punches in the first rounds.

That was the same thing I was doing. Everytime that Shogun did anything, Rogan was all over it, but was totally disregarding what Machida did in his commentary. The only difference was that I had Shogun winning 3-2, but can understand how someone had it the other way.

I like Rogan, mostly for the funny crap he says that he probably shouldn't say, but he is overly biased. But, I know that going in, so it doesn't bother me.

It's generally obvious what the "talking points" are or who he favors personally (re: anyone who uses rubber-guard), or even who the UFC is "behind". Goldie is even worse when it comes to talking points. At times he throws things in that he clearly doesn't have command of.

[Sean Dunston]

Originally Posted by Ken DaSilva

That was the same thing I was doing. Everytime that Shogun did anything, Rogan was all over it, but was totally disregarding what Machida did in his commentary. The only difference was that I had Shogun winning 3-2, but can understand how someone had it the other way.

I like Rogan, mostly for the funny crap he says that he probably shouldn't say, but he is overly biased. But, I know that going in, so it doesn't bother me.

It's generally obvious what the "talking points" are or who he favors personally (re: anyone who uses rubber-guard), or even who the UFC is "behind". Goldie is even worse when it comes to talking points. At times he throws things in that he clearly doesn't have command of.

I totally agree with this criticism of the commentators.
However, I watched an episode "Unleashed" earlier this week that highlighted Royce Gracie's career... and listening to the commentary from UFC 1-4 was ridiculous... nobody knew WTF was happening, they couldn't accurately describe what was going on in the octagon, and I'm not sure they even had the words "arm bar" in their vocabulary!

[Matt Rexin]

However, I watched an episode "Unleashed" earlier this week that highlighted Royce Gracie's career... and listening to the commentary from UFC 1-4 was ridiculous... nobody knew WTF was happening, they couldn't accurately describe what was going on in the octagon, and I'm not sure they even had the words "arm bar" in their vocabulary!

In most of the fights from those first 4, Kimo aside, Royce just had to show up and be conscious and he had already won.