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Old 02-24-2014, 06:58 PM   #71
Dale F. Saran
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Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM

Crap - never mind. At some point in a thousand posts if you've never once added to the collective efforts there's only one conclusion: trolling.
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Old 02-24-2014, 07:28 PM   #72
Sara Ochsner
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Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM

Not trolls. They have helped numerous people here on the CF forum. Shame that playing devils advocate led to banning.
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Old 02-24-2014, 07:30 PM   #73
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Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM

Tobacco and alcohol are widely known hazards - especially to what is, for the most part, our community here, with very few exceptions. Those industries are making no public claims regarding health of which I'm aware and do not intersect with the fitness space.

This community has formed in large part around those who instinctively rejected the message and marketing of supplement companies a long time ago.

The ACSM portrays itself as an independent scientific body protecting athletes while advancing sports science. The truth is radically different and their target audience is very close to ours in terms of education and intellect.

I'm not looking to regulate anything. I think tort law and public education - especially leading with the CF community - can do what needs to be done here. Government will make almost any problem worse and not better. I'd expect government to collude with the worst of the free market and protect nothing but government and its cronies.

Ours is a top down approach to almost every issue. We speak first and clearly to the smart people, convince them of the truth and only the truth wherever we see it regardless of how that may unfold. Those people will filter down to the rest. Were it not for that sense of things there'd be no CF and most everyone here would be doing what they did before CF.
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Old 02-24-2014, 09:16 PM   #74
Clint Harris
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Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM

I'm probably in the boat of needing a few smart people to first digest and the disseminate this info to me so that I can understand or ignore this. I assume it's a little more than Powerade is now better than Gatorade.

However, what's the correlation between increased deaths/injuries through over hydration; and the increased participation of ultra-runs, marathons, 5ks, and even CrossFit, along with all this information (myth, fact, other) being available to anyone who wants it inside of a few seconds?

So a soda company sponsored a study to drink more fluids, preferably their own brand I'm sure. But I'm curious, can all of these deaths and injuries be directly attributed to that study or simply drinking gatorade or more fluids ?

On the flip side, without those big soda sponsor $$ we wouldn't have many of these events, races and runs to participate in or even things to watch and enjoy. What are we going to do?
What happens if/when Reebok release a study saying their easy tones promote a nice butt. Yet someone determines that the increased usage of these shoes also resulted in an increase in injuries while doing box jumps? Will CrossFit terminate that relationship immediately ?

I'm also baffled as to why those few people were banned. Was that really from this thread ? That's asinine based on those posts. Go back and look at their past post records.
I think the CrossFit staff need to evaluate their own emotions before tapping these little keys in front of them. Clearly, those users were not trolling.
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Old 02-24-2014, 11:56 PM   #75
Dale F. Saran
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Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM

Clint - have you read any of "Waterlogged?" Did you read the post right above yours? Is it your contention that Dr. Noakes is making up the record of what happened? It played out entirely in the public forum of the British Journal of Sports Medicine, with Dr's Noakes and Speedy making the case, repeatedly, that the ACSM hydration guidelines would kill people, particularly small women. Voila! They did. All along the ACSM kept saying that the "science" proved that one needed to consume copious amounts of fluids - preferably of the kind made by their platinum sponsor, Gatorade - also the creators of the "Gatorade Sports Science Institute." (Have you never seen those commercials with the Keith Jackson voiceover claiming the miraculous benefits of Gatorade? Really? They played for years in prime time spots during college football games. I don't know your age, but I can remember them distinctly. Even recently, you haven't seen the "G formula" series of Gatorade, the commercials with Tiger Woods, the "pre-workout" sugary beverage, the "performance fuel" or whatever it's called, and the "post workout" G "formula?"

Back then, Gatorade was supposed to prevent heatstroke (now it enhances performance). But even AFTER the ACSM finally backpedaled - in the face of a dozen deaths - they wrote an editorial still claiming that we wouldn't know the untold numbers of people who had been saved from serious injury due to heatstroke. If you haven't read that record, go do that - then come back and tell me you believe it was all (a) a misunderstanding, and/or (b) had nothing to do with the largest donor to ACSM's "non-profit" coffers.
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Old 02-24-2014, 11:58 PM   #76
Dale F. Saran
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Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM

Then factor this: look at how the South Africans and Kiwis instantly fixed the problem. They removed a ton of those Gatorade stations at major marathons. They set guidelines that wouldn't allow the placement of those stations more often than every 5K (IIRC on the distance, I'm going from memory at the moment). Poof - EAH problem solved. A looonnnnngg time before ACSM was willing to let go of its claim. Years. Many years - and thousands of people still left to be injured as it turns out (and a few more killed).

I don't know how many marathons you've run, but I did 3 in college and a fourth less than 10 years ago. At all of them you can't go too much more than a mile without seeing ubiquitous orange colored tents and Gatorade being served (or its equivalent). That's on ACSM for telling everyone that they had the 'science' to prove that was needed - all while they were getting their salaries paid by Gatorade.

At a minimum, doesn't it beg the question of WHY they wouldn't at least tell everyone while they were publishing articles under the guise of advancing science that their research was paid for by the very product they were recommending to drink in mass quantities? Wouldn't that kind of conflict of interest at least be necessary, if they were truly in the pursuit of scientific knowledge?

I don't know how anyone could read those papers and the back and forth by Dr. Noakes and the ACSM fellows defending their 'research' and simultaneously attacking Noakes and Speedy, and conclude anything other than that the ACSM was either (a) willfully promoting, then defending junk science for profit, or (b) so grossly incompetent that it would call into question the qualifications of anyone who had been advocating the way they had... (and coincidentally they were making money from the unintended beneficiary of their ignorance, who also happened to be their largest donor.)
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Old 02-25-2014, 03:07 AM   #77
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Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM

Sara, they may "have helped numerous people here on the CF forum", and now they're helping everyone.

"Playing devils advocate" carries with it the risk of appearing insincere or stupid, and whereas being stupid cannot get you banned, making me work constantly to figure out which you are afflicted with eventually will. Intelligent skepticism and more thoughtful inquiry would have served them better were their aims to serve the community, add to the conversation, and remain here.

It's best to use "devil's advocacy" in sincere and meaningful interaction sparingly, like raising one's voice, or dramatic pause in oratory. At the point that the devil's advocacy becomes knee-jerk or incessant, it's time to rock your own FB page.

There's another component to their removal, and that's impugning our motives and their tone. This isn't the corner of Main Street and Elm, it's my living room. There's little I wouldn't do for those that post here and much that I'd expect of them in return.

This would be a great time to thank everyone here engaged in meaningful and sincere interaction. Our commitment to serving this community is why I get up in the morning, and the middle of the night.

Last edited by Coach : 02-25-2014 at 03:11 AM. Reason: To move a preposition to better serve reading
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Old 02-25-2014, 06:24 AM   #78
Sara Ochsner
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Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM

My apologies, I was addressing Dale in my last comment. It is plain to see why you wouldn't want a-holes in your community.
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Old 02-25-2014, 08:50 AM   #79
Joey Dussel
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Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM

Saying CF should go after tobacco or alcohol rather than Gatorade & ACSM relationship is a whacky comparison..those don't have any doctors or scientists purporting health benefits...anymore! I may be young but I've heard of / seen the old-timey cigarette ads with doctors on them. I'd be surprised if big tobacco companies didn't pay for scientific studies that supported smoking at the time!

Look what we (as a nation / people / organization--you choose the term) have done with that? We followed the science, changed our stance and changed the rules and recommendations. To me, seems like Coach Glassman is just starting that conversation here.

RECAP:
For Comparison only:
Big Tobacco pays for studies that find cigarettes are healthy, health professionals (doctors, etc) fall for it, people die, we change as we learn the truth.

(Maybe, in my mind TBD as of yet) Gatorade pays for studies that find hydration levels that are "healthy", health professionals (doctors, trainers, nutritionists, etc) fall for it, people die (albeit not as many as cigarettes), we change our position as we learn the truth.

-Joey
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Old 02-25-2014, 09:35 AM   #80
Christopher Morris
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Re: Exercise Associated Hyponatremic Encephalopathy, Gatorade and the ACSM

Dale,
Thank you for those last two posts. The timeline you present is insightful as to who knew what and when. That has clarified why CrossFit HQ wants to take this issue head-on so aggressively.

You mentioned an ACSM editorial about heatstroke prevention. I couldn't find it with a few searches online. Do you have a link or reference for it?
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