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Old 11-12-2009, 10:51 PM   #11
Blair Robert Lowe
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Re: Back Squat Bigger Than Deadlift??

Allison, are you using an overgrip, mixed grip or hook grip in either grip? Are you HBBS or LBBS?

Dave Tate would say some people are born to convention DL and some people are born to Sumo DL based on build.

Are you training the DL in intensity modalities aka 10x1, 7x2, 3x5, 5x5, etc?
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Old 11-13-2009, 02:22 AM   #12
James Rios
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Re: Back Squat Bigger Than Deadlift??

Dave Tate's squat is WAY bigger than his dead...
according to the Journal his numbers are:
930 lb. back squat, 610 lb. bench press and 740 lb. deadlift...
thats almost a 200# dif...
so yeah...
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Old 11-13-2009, 02:36 AM   #13
David Meverden
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Re: Back Squat Bigger Than Deadlift??

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Originally Posted by James Rios View Post
Dave Tate's squat is WAY bigger than his dead...
according to the Journal his numbers are:
930 lb. back squat, 610 lb. bench press and 740 lb. deadlift...
thats almost a 200# dif...
so yeah...
This is pretty typical among high level equipped power lifters because they use a squat form that has a significantly shorter range of motion than the type of squats we typically do around here (see his CFJ video on squats) and because, when in an expensive and constrictive squat suit, a lot of elastic energy can be stored on the way down. This energy is mostly not available for the deadlift because it has no initial eccentric portion (though I'm told a good belt or suit still helps).

Good to see you on the boards, Allison! And I agree, while it's weird that your DL isn't higher (perhaps videos would be helpful? Maybe you ARE just proportioned better for sumos), those are killer numbers!
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Old 11-13-2009, 07:48 AM   #14
Allison Bishop
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Re: Back Squat Bigger Than Deadlift??

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Originally Posted by Blair Robert Lowe View Post
Allison, are you using an overgrip, mixed grip or hook grip in either grip? Are you HBBS or LBBS?

Dave Tate would say some people are born to convention DL and some people are born to Sumo DL based on build.

Are you training the DL in intensity modalities aka 10x1, 7x2, 3x5, 5x5, etc?
Thanks for your input, everyone!

I use a double overhand grip as long as I can when I deadlift. I only mix it when it starts to get so heavy that it slips out of my hands.

I low Bar back squat and ALWAYS go below parallel. Brendan spots me and makes sure of it and I wouldn't want to squat shallow anyway - I'd never count it as a successful lift.

I deadlift 7x1, 3x5 or 5x5.


What kind of body type IS better suited for SDL?
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Old 11-13-2009, 07:50 AM   #15
Allison Bishop
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Re: Back Squat Bigger Than Deadlift??

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Originally Posted by Alex McRobie View Post
good advice,
also power cleans?
I power clean often - I don't think I'm deficient there. My PR now is 168
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Old 11-13-2009, 07:54 AM   #16
Allison Bishop
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Re: Back Squat Bigger Than Deadlift??

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Knowing how hardcore you are that was my first thought too. When I was new to DL's I could deadlift every week. As I progressed I had to change that to every other week (alternating with RDL's.) Now I only do heavy deads once every four weeks. The other DL workout might be a 3x5 or putting ~65%-of-1RM DL's into a WOD. Something like:

Week 1: ME Deads
Week 2: Med-high rep RDL's
Week 3: 3x5 Deads or used in a WOD
Week 4: Low-rep RDL's

Thanks. I guess I have to start some kind of DL strength program?


Does anyone know why we don't SDL in CF? It seems like every time I pick something up in real lift it resembles a SDL more than a standard DL.
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Old 11-13-2009, 08:17 AM   #17
David Meverden
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Re: Back Squat Bigger Than Deadlift??

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Originally Posted by Allison Bishop View Post

What kind of body type IS better suited for SDL?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allison Bishop View Post
Thanks. I guess I have to start some kind of DL strength program?


Does anyone know why we don't SDL in CF? It seems like every time I pick something up in real lift it resembles a SDL more than a standard DL.
Where is Anthony Bainbridge when you need him? Maybe we can try and stir him up somehow.

Starting Strength has this to say on SDL:
"Good sumo deadlifters typically have long torsos relative to the legs and are good squatters. This version of the lift allows for a more upright back angle so that leg strength may be used more efficiently (fig. 4-3). Since our purpose is the development of low back strength through the effective use of exercises that work these muscles, the sumo deadlift will not be used in this program" (pg. 105) (I'm so glad to have my copy of SS back!)

SDL will also have a shorter range of motion which, along with the reason above, is why I suspect it is not specifically programmed in CF.

I don't know how you are proportioned (maybe you should post some photographs of yourself is tight fitting clothing, or like, a bathing suit, so that we could properly assess those proportions It would be PURELY in the name of science. Anthropometric research, of course. No other motive here ) but it sounds like the SDL might be something to mess around with for singles, see if it feels better and if you could eventually get more weight up.
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Old 11-13-2009, 10:52 AM   #18
Jared Ashley
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Re: Back Squat Bigger Than Deadlift??

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Originally Posted by David Meverden View Post

Starting Strength has this to say on SDL:
"Good sumo deadlifters typically have long torsos relative to the legs and are good squatters. This version of the lift allows for a more upright back angle so that leg strength may be used more efficiently (fig. 4-3). Since our purpose is the development of low back strength through the effective use of exercises that work these muscles, the sumo deadlift will not be used in this program" (pg. 105) (I'm so glad to have my copy of SS back!)
hmmm.... thanks for that.

Sounds like I may need to give sumo a shot. Definately have short legs and a long torso (I'm 4 inches taller than my wife but have the same inseam!). Would consider myself a "good squatter" in the sense that once I knew what good form was I didn't have that much trouble making it happen, and once I had form down my numbers shot up. Max DL is still higher than max squat, but not by as much as a lot of people.

I can see Rip's point about the different back angles, and how regular stance may be superior for developing the posterior chain and lower back espcially, but if one can lift more sumo-stance I don't see the point of neglecting it entirely. Maybe this is an overhand vs. mixed grip type debate... use standard stance until you can't anymore to build the strength, then switch to sumo. Obviously this only applies to those who are built for sumo; for everyone else there's probably not much point in messing with it.
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Old 11-13-2009, 01:01 PM   #19
Tom Fetter
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Re: Back Squat Bigger Than Deadlift??

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Originally Posted by Allison Bishop View Post
Thanks. I guess I have to start some kind of DL strength program?


Does anyone know why we don't SDL in CF? It seems like every time I pick something up in real lift it resembles a SDL more than a standard DL.
How often are you doing those 7X1, 3X5, or 5X5 workouts? And when you do them, are those mostly sets across, or ramping up to a single heavy set?

If you look at their training logs, for the last couple of years Anthony & Jodi Bainbridge have programmed their strength work in separately, then doing the MainPage WOD. If a strength WOD comes up on the MainPage, they'll ignore it; substituting in a metcon instead (for themselves and their affiliate members), and not interrupting their planned strength cycle.

It's worked out that typically they pull heavy DL one day, 4 days later will do an assistance day (DE deads, or rack pulls, or good mornings) ... and 4 days after that do another heavy DL session. And so on ...

But even as they've cut back their DL volume this Fall by focusing on singles rather than higher-rep sets, on any max effort day they've still been ramping up steadily to a single set at the top weight, and then leaving it. Enough to stimulate the training effect, but not too much to recover from.

Hard to argue with their success!

Last edited by Tom Fetter; 11-13-2009 at 01:04 PM..
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Old 11-13-2009, 02:32 PM   #20
John Seiler
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Re: Back Squat Bigger Than Deadlift??

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Originally Posted by David Meverden View Post
Starting Strength has this to say on SDL: Since our purpose is the development of low back strength through the effective use of exercises that work these muscles, the sumo deadlift will not be used in this program" (pg. 105) (I'm so glad to have my copy of SS back!)

SDL will also have a shorter range of motion which, along with the reason above, is why I suspect it is not specifically programmed in CF.
Bingo! At the end of the day, most of us aren't competing in Powerlifting (the Bainbridges being an obvious exception.) So the point isn't maximum pounds lifted, it's maximum stimulation of the posterior chain. Hey, that sounds kinda racy!
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