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Old 07-29-2014, 03:05 PM   #1701
Christopher Murphy
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Re: 2014 CrossFit Open, Regionals, and Games Thread

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Originally Posted by Tommy Sittinger View Post
Agreed on all of the above.

It really is just marketing hype, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Let's use a hypothetical situation using identical twins - twin A weighs 180#, twin B weighs 200#. Both twins run a 400m for time. Twin A does 5:50, and twin B does 6:00. Who's "more fit?"

Same thing for the CF games - the smaller body-weight ninjas will typically do poorly on heavy metcons and weightlifting ladders, and taller, heavier athletes will come up short with BW-focused WOD's. Even body type can be a deal breaker. For example, I'm tall with long limbs, which makes me good at pulling, but I'm at a relative disadvantage with squats and presses (HSPU and Pull-ups as well). The advantage goes to the 5'9"-5'11" 180#-190# male who has great levers for squatting and pressing. That's just the way it is.
I would say Twin A, although I see your point. This is why they perform tests in multiple time domains, movement patterns and prescribed weights.
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Old 07-29-2014, 03:09 PM   #1702
Tristan Hoyle
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Re: 2014 CrossFit Open, Regionals, and Games Thread

Lucas was Sick. He stated it on his twitter and facebook accounts that he was "feeling better" on Saturday, but still not 100%.
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Old 07-29-2014, 03:35 PM   #1703
Harrison Holtz
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Re: 2014 CrossFit Open, Regionals, and Games Thread

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Originally Posted by Christopher Murphy View Post
If you read how Crossfit defines fitness (as work capacity across broad time and modal domains), fitness isn't very subjective at all. According to Crossfit, the fittest person moves the most weight, the longest distances, in the shortest amount of time across different modes (movement patterns) and time domains (short, medium, long).

Work = (weight x distance) / time. The higher the yield from this equation, the higher the work capacity for any given workout/ event. Points were awarded to the participants who scored the highest work capacity for each event. These points accumulate and are comparable to the other competitors' points throughout the competition.

Rich scored the most points over the span of this test (the Crossfit Games 2014). Therefore, he is the fittest based on how Crossfit defines fitness. Everybody went through the same tests. If a fitter person did not participate in the Games process (open - regionals - games), I am not sure much can be done about that. Everybody has a chance to sign up for the Open; to qualify for regionals; to qualify for the games.
It's tough to continue this point without coming off as an a-hole, so after this i promise i'm done.... if it really were as simple as that work equation, then failing 3 cleans quickly would be more valuable than completing two slowly, as you would get more total work in. The CrossFit games yes in some aspects measures work, in addition to some skills that are very specific to CrossFit and being a good CrossFiter. If you do 20 butterfly pullups in the time i do 19 strict, hands down you're a better CrossFiter because you beat me in the event. But i'm not so sure you're more fit.

But then again.... CrossFit probably knows what they're doing. They love being the topic of debate, and anyone who argues against CrossFit being the fittest is one more person talking about CrossFit.
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Old 07-29-2014, 03:51 PM   #1704
Desmond Pegrum
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Re: 2014 CrossFit Open, Regionals, and Games Thread

The more crossfit gets more specialised (and it gets more specialised year after year) and the more imbedded the standard crossfit movements become, the less likely anyone from other fields of athletic achievement will even bother trying their hand at crossfit because they don't want to become a full time crossfitter and have to give up their current athletic endeavour

We are talking about olympic level weightlifters, those ninja street calithenics athletes (barstarzz etc, those guys are animals), olympic level track and field athletes etc


Cody Anderson has huge potential, with 2 more years of strength and filling out a bit more (but not getting too bulky), he will become a true threat

Khalipa really impresses me, how he has kept up with the evolution of the sport.
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Old 07-29-2014, 06:01 PM   #1705
Price Goosby
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Re: 2014 CrossFit Open, Regionals, and Games Thread

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Originally Posted by Tristan Hoyle View Post
Lucas was Sick. He stated it on his twitter and facebook accounts that he was "feeling better" on Saturday, but still not 100%.
Though he's one of my favorite competitors, he tends to come down with something every time there's a competition. At this point I'm starting to chalk it up to him not working well under pressure since he says he loves to train, but not compete.
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Old 07-29-2014, 06:11 PM   #1706
Jon Campbell
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Re: 2014 CrossFit Open, Regionals, and Games Thread

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Originally Posted by Drew Cloutier View Post
Totally agree with this, but also agree with others its probably all about the gimmick



Then again world's fastest man at which distance?

but I see your point, and agree with the general theme of it, different people different definition.



I hope for his sake that Cody is not stuck in that mold (aka 1 dimensional), I really hope that since he's so young he'll take the time to work on his strength and size early add the mass and strength now...and then spend the time refining that mass so to speak and getting used to it and moving with it etc...



Considering that american football is only played in the NFL I think that's a safe bet to make, baseball I don't know anything about.



To be fair PL, WL, and strongman all proclaim to crown the world's strongest man, AND there is not only one strongman federation so even strongman is fractured.

To be fair using your example, I doubt WL'ers load atlas stones, or hercules hold as much as strongman or that PL'ers log press as much or flips cars as fast as strongman.

To defend WSM, it originally started as a competition comparing athletes of various sports to see who was the strongest...so it wasn't exactly a bad name.
Bolt may not be able to win a 400m race but it doesn't change the fact he is the fastest human alive. You guys are hung up on distances. A cheetah is the fastest animal period. Not the fastest over a specific distance.
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Old 07-29-2014, 06:30 PM   #1707
Drew Cloutier
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Re: 2014 CrossFit Open, Regionals, and Games Thread

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Originally Posted by Anthony Hernandez View Post
I would argue there is nothing in human nature about being that absolute strongest either. Both ultra long marathons and PL are at the ends of the human performance spectrum. I would imagine heavy deads are as boring after a while as running for miles on end. Also hyenas will travel (run, sprint, stalk) for days to hunt down pray. And lions gather almost all of their food from scavenging and recall that male lions DO NOT HUNT, only females and they do so in packs.

I have grown to appreciate running 5 to 10 Ks and I do a lot of Olympic lifting. I think "The Games" do a good job of determining the fittest. In many ways at least to me the Games has come down to , "who is the fittest Olympic Lifter".
I do agree that olympic lifting movements and their variations play a big role in the games, but I don't think you can put it down to most fit olympic lifter, not many olympic lifters I would imagine do handstand walking, muscle ups and other movements, and true olympic lifters are on a whole other level than crossfitters (no offense meant just truth)

BUT I do think they should put in more odd new apparatus, object lifting, thick bar lifting, and more lifts that are maybe less technique based and more pure strength based.

[QUOTE=Bryan Wilson;1238600]
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Originally Posted by Drew Cloutier View Post

I hope for his sake that Cody is not stuck in that mold (aka 1 dimensional), I really hope that since he's so young he'll take the time to work on his strength and size early add the mass and strength now...and then spend the time refining that mass so to speak and getting used to it and moving with it etc...



Cody is a hell of a lot stronger than Spealler (and Bridges) already at 21 years old and still looks like he can fill out his frame in the years to come. That was one thing that struck me watching the Games; Cody and Spealler have a pretty comparable build (wiry= similar to mine) but, Cod is just strong as an ox. Funny how if you looked at them side by side you wouldn't guess one is about 50% stronger than the other one.
I wholeheartedly agree Cody is far stronger than spealler but to be dominant he needs to put on another 10-20lbs and get his strength up by 20-60lbs per lift approx, and I think that will be one of the hardest things for him because he does seem like he has such a small frame.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Desmond Pegrum View Post
The more crossfit gets more specialised (and it gets more specialised year after year) and the more imbedded the standard crossfit movements become, the less likely anyone from other fields of athletic achievement will even bother trying their hand at crossfit because they don't want to become a full time crossfitter and have to give up their current athletic endeavour

We are talking about olympic level weightlifters, those ninja street calithenics athletes (barstarzz etc, those guys are animals), olympic level track and field athletes etc


Cody Anderson has huge potential, with 2 more years of strength and filling out a bit more (but not getting too bulky), he will become a true threat

Khalipa really impresses me, how he has kept up with the evolution of the sport.
I agree that crossfit is getting more and more specialized and that's good and bad, bad in that they are getting away from the whole general/broad theme by getting more and more of these specialized movements only seen in crossfit. Good in that it means the game is going up a level (or more) in terms of expectations and in terms of what crossfit attracts.
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Old 07-29-2014, 06:36 PM   #1708
Tommy Sittinger
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Re: 2014 CrossFit Open, Regionals, and Games Thread

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Originally Posted by Christopher Murphy View Post
I would say Twin A, although I see your point. This is why they perform tests in multiple time domains, movement patterns and prescribed weights.
This is true. It's currently the best way to determine the most well-rounded athlete.

But, there could be an even better way to do it - scale points for gymnsatic movements to body weight, and also scale weighted movements to body weight.

For example, consider Cindy. One athlete weighs 165#, and the other weighs 210#. The first one does 32 rounds, and the second one does 29 rounds. The latter athlete clearly had a higher overall work output, and should score higher. The body weight advantage for the first athlete is nullified.

Next, these two both do Grace. The 165# guy does it in 1:50, and the 210# guy does it in 1:35. Who wins? The 165# person is using 82% of body weight, and the 210# person is only using 65% of body weight. If you scale the load based on body weight, the lighter athlete would win. This negates the advantage of the larger, more muscular athlete.

I think that the above methods would more accurately test for the "fittest" athlete. Another question: If my 100 burpee time is 6:10 @215#, and I repeat 100 burpees at a future date in 6:10 while weighing 225#, am I not more fit than I was previously?
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Old 07-29-2014, 06:42 PM   #1709
Dakota Base
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Re: 2014 CrossFit Open, Regionals, and Games Thread

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Originally Posted by Eric Montgomery View Post
Yet that doesn't stop the network broadcasts of the Olympics from hyping the 100m final as the crowning of the World's Fastest Man regardless of whether the winner goes on to set a world record, and without qualifying it as "The World's Fastest Man over 100m on this Particular Day."

I found one article that said Bolt covered a 20m portion of his last 100m final at an average speed of 27.79 miles per hour. What if someone else hit 27.9mph for a 20m portion of the race but didn't win because he couldn't sustain it? Is he "faster" than Bolt? The fastest car/plane/ship is based on maximum top speed, not based on the distance that speed can be sustained.
Your point is valid, but the fact is that Usain's record is not just for time, but ALSO for max speed, as you're questioning.

A discrepancy like you've mentioned actually DID happen a few years ago (ok, more than a few). At one point in time, Micheal Johnson had the "world's fastest man" title which he earned during his 200m world record based on instantaneous speed - hit AFTER a distance of 100m, whereas at that time the world record for 100m was held by Maurice Greene and Donovan Bailey (and I think maybe another few fellas, since Johnson's speed record stood for something like 12yrs). I remember there was a "battle" of sorts in the media that wanted Maurice Greene recognized as world's fastest man, rather than Johnson, based on his 100 record, but the data supported Johnson's claim to the title.

So that's kinda sad to think that the human body is still capable of accelerating AFTER 100m.

BUT... Onto Usain...

Usain bolt has not only the 100m and 200m World Records, BUT ALSO THE MAX SPEED RECORD, as his 100m record speed was somewhere in the 23.5mph average pace, but his INSTANTANEOUS SPEED clocked and verified by high speed camera based over 10yrd coverage to be just under 28mph (keeping in mind that it's less than 4 steps for Usain, who takes 41 steps in 100m). Usain accelerates a bit faster than the old title holder Mike Johnson in that he reaches his top speed within 60-70m during a race, more typical of 100m sprinters being 70-80m top speed.

Shorter racers can't accelerate fast enough to top the speed, and longer racers don't gain any speed, even in the 200m - as proven by the oddity that Michael Johnson was the top speed human from a 200m race.

So in any officially sanctioned race of any kind and any distance, Usain bolt really is the FASTEST HUMAN THAT EVER LIVED, based on raw speed. Quite literally, no human, in any recorded event, has ever ran faster than Usain Bolt.
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Old 07-29-2014, 07:03 PM   #1710
Dakota Base
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Re: 2014 CrossFit Open, Regionals, and Games Thread

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Originally Posted by Tommy Sittinger View Post
This is true. It's currently the best way to determine the most well-rounded athlete.

But, there could be an even better way to do it - scale points for gymnsatic movements to body weight, and also scale weighted movements to body weight.

For example, consider Cindy. One athlete weighs 165#, and the other weighs 210#. The first one does 32 rounds, and the second one does 29 rounds. The latter athlete clearly had a higher overall work output, and should score higher. The body weight advantage for the first athlete is nullified.

Next, these two both do Grace. The 165# guy does it in 1:50, and the 210# guy does it in 1:35. Who wins? The 165# person is using 82% of body weight, and the 210# person is only using 65% of body weight. If you scale the load based on body weight, the lighter athlete would win. This negates the advantage of the larger, more muscular athlete.

I think that the above methods would more accurately test for the "fittest" athlete. Another question: If my 100 burpee time is 6:10 @215#, and I repeat 100 burpees at a future date in 6:10 while weighing 225#, am I not more fit than I was previously?
What you're really presenting is a "pound for pound" fitness, and frankly, that's so variable, it'd be impossible to regulate. Strength numbers do not follow a linear scaling factor, take a look at power lifting records, Olympic lifting records, or even published strength standards like the Rippetoe & Kilgore tables. The lightest guys and the heaviest guys tend to be at a "pound for pound" disadvantage, while there's a "sweet spot" in the middle for a certain frame size and body weight - not too far off from the "standard" crossfit body size - for "pound for pound" proportionate strength.

But that's only considering pound for pound strength in terms of raw strength capacity. It's not considering body SHAPE. If you consider say, gymnastics movements, athletes of a certain body type or frame proportion can give up significant numbers in pound for pound strength and HUGE numbers in raw strength but still have an advantage biomechanically. You hear it all the time in different circles that long or short arms or legs are an advantage or disadvantage for different lifts or movements. Relatively speaking, it makes sense, a 6'1" 165lb man is likely to be far weaker than a 5'7" 165lb man, even if the two have equivalent muscle/fat ratios.

Considering those complications, in a comprehensive contest like the Games, it's impossible to scale based on bodyweight in any intelligent way.

Frankly, the Games, in my opinion, does a good job of using standardized movements in a random enough method to promote consistency, but still be variant. I enjoyed the block-drive in last years Games, which isn't really a technical skill, but really isn't a pure feat of strength either - but a fantastic gauge of overall fitness, and with a twist that instead of the "wood splitter" downward swing like a med-ball slam, it offered a variation of "tree chopping" that might not have been in any athlete's training program. I was sad to not see a unique event like that in the Games this year.

I did, however, feel like some of the events, and especially the coverage, were aimed at selling certain equipment to affiliates and athletes, as in how much they touted the sprint sled and big bob... Last year, it was the flipping "pig".

The Games has events where Khalipa has an advantage, some where Froning and Bailey have advantages, and where Troyan or Forte have an advantage... Average performance that exceeds that of the rest of the field is what wins the Games.

There's a reason why MetRx WSM or Stihl Timersports WC's are on at midnight a few months after it happened and why Crossfit Games are on LIVE. Too arbitrary and it loses relevancy. Regulated Crossfit could become a "decathlon" type event in the Olympics some day (although I don't believe it will - same deal with obstacle racing/mud racing). Carrying motorcycles, throwing kegs, or chopping logs will never be.
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