CrossFit Discussion Board  

Go Back   CrossFit Discussion Board > CrossFit Forum > Exercises
CrossFit Home Forum Site Rules CrossFit FAQ Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Exercises Movements, technique & proper execution

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-11-2011, 02:52 PM   #1
Pat Flynn
Member Pat Flynn is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: West Chester  PA
Posts: 26
"Packing in the Neck" - Deadlift

I have been talking extensively with strength coach and PT Dr. Charlie Weingroff about the concept of "packing in the neck", especially in regards to aggressive hinging movements. (I have an interview with him on my site for those who want to know all the fancy nitty gritty scientificals behind this...)

I wanted to know if anyone here as experimented with this technique, and if so - how it feels to you and the results you have obtained.

I'll attach a video and briefly summarize why Charlie and I feel this is an important technique for those who are unfamiliar with it

1. "Packing in the neck" is actually a capital movement, not cervical - the primary purpose is to maintain neutrality of the upper lordotic curve - and avoid cervical extension.

2. What happens in the c-spine typically will trickle down to the lumbar - therefore lifting with excessive amounts of cervical extension often results in hyperlordosis. Charlie and I believe this to be "less than optimal" due to the fact that when you operate in an overachred position, you are in a position of structural support (bony approximity - meaning your disks are now closer to gether). As Charlie stated when he first wrote about this - this bony approximity sends a signal to your brain saying "hey we got support from our bones down here, so we don't need as much inner core" - and this leads to the inhibition of your inner core stabilizers (TVA, multifidus, longissimus, diaphram, pelvic floor, pick your favorite...). In simpler terms, overarching/hyperlordosis means less core activation and "authentic stability".

3. Cervical extension often puts the neck under load and inhibits your deep neck flexors (sternoclediomastoid, scalenes, etc ) - which are designed for quick changes in head position - not for bearing weighty loads. Hyperlordosis in C-spine may also leave the weight hanging off your C-4/C-5 region. Again, IMO, and Dr. Weingroffs, we believe this to be "less than optimal".

This has become quite a controversial topic for some - so I would love to gather some feedback from anyone who has tried it, and if you have not worked this technique and would like to start doing so, then I hope this thread will be able to help you. I have an extensive blog post on this topic as well.

Here is a video demonstrating what the form looks like - if you look closely, it almost looks like I have a mild amount of capital flexion and cervical retrusion - both of which may be decent clues for you to find this position.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6omAm...el_video_title
__________________
Pat Flynn - Lifestyle Augmentation Specialist
Http://www.chroniclesofstrength.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2011, 03:40 PM   #2
David Meverden
Member David Meverden is offline
 
David Meverden's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Charleston  SC
Posts: 2,802
Re: "Packing in the Neck" - Deadlift

I'd be willing to give this a shot.

Quote:
What happens in the c-spine typically will trickle down to the lumbar - therefore lifting with excessive amounts of cervical extension often results in hyperlordosis.
So, does the coach feel that people who CAN'T maintain their lumbar curve should arch their neck and look upwards? After all, if the c-spine leads the lumbar that should follow.

Also, the biggest problem I see people have with deadlifts is not maintaining lordosis. In other words, not maintaining a lumbar curve. So if this technique makes it LESS likely to maintain that curve then it's going to be a bad idea.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2011, 06:00 PM   #3
Brian Strump
Affiliate Brian Strump is offline
 
Brian Strump's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Charlotte  NC
Posts: 2,619
Re: "Packing in the Neck" - Deadlift

Dr. Charlie Weingroff is a very bright guy. Dr. of PT, and does alot of teaching with some of the great minds of rehab and strength training. He's also been a strength coach for some top professional teams.

Keep in mind, for almost everything someone says about anything, you'll find someone that wants to disagree.

IMO, listen to Charlie, not strangers opinions on the internet.
__________________
Brian Strump, D.C., FMS, NKT
www.crossfitsteelecreek.com/
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2011, 06:07 PM   #4
Robert Fabsik
Member Robert Fabsik is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Kildeer  IL
Posts: 2,233
Re: "Packing in the Neck" - Deadlift

In the video, the neck was clearly packed. But, was the guy pulling the bar too far out in front of him?
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2011, 06:08 PM   #5
Pat Flynn
Member Pat Flynn is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: West Chester  PA
Posts: 26
Re: "Packing in the Neck" - Deadlift

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Meverden View Post
I'd be willing to give this a shot.



So, does the coach feel that people who CAN'T maintain their lumbar curve should arch their neck and look upwards? After all, if the c-spine leads the lumbar that should follow.

Also, the biggest problem I see people have with deadlifts is not maintaining lordosis. In other words, not maintaining a lumbar curve. So if this technique makes it LESS likely to maintain that curve then it's going to be a bad idea.
David - while cervical extension may help one arch their lumbar, I would say this is a poor choice of paths to take when teaching one to maintain neutral spine. There are much better drills to teach someone to maintain mild lordosis - but that is outside the scope of this discussion, at least for now.

But you are correct - most of the time, the problem is that people are lifting in flexion - which is a whole different problem.

But also let's keep in mind the following points.

1. most people are hypermobile in their C-T & T-L junction, which allows them to easily go beyond normal,mild,and safe lordosis when lifting.

Further more, from my discussions with Dr. Weingroff we have found that it is actually often times imperceptible by others because 1.) the standard of static posture is often skewed and disagreed upon, 2.) girth can cover up the vertebrae and it's curves, and 3.) the associated structure of the hips, scaps, and upper c-spine can compensate or create an illusion of ill posture.

In theory, and in my practice with myself and others, packing in the neck brings the c-spine, and l-spine to a flatter position of mild lordosis. I have yet to experience a case where it brings somebody into flexion - but then again I have only taught this technique to people whom I have previously taught how to maintain a neutral spine.
__________________
Pat Flynn - Lifestyle Augmentation Specialist
Http://www.chroniclesofstrength.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2011, 06:10 PM   #6
Pat Flynn
Member Pat Flynn is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: West Chester  PA
Posts: 26
Re: "Packing in the Neck" - Deadlift

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Strump View Post
Dr. Charlie Weingroff is a very bright guy. Dr. of PT, and does alot of teaching with some of the great minds of rehab and strength training. He's also been a strength coach for some top professional teams.

Keep in mind, for almost everything someone says about anything, you'll find someone that wants to disagree.

IMO, listen to Charlie, not strangers opinions on the internet.
Dr. Weingroff is indeed one of the most intelligent trainers I have ever met and had the pleasure of working with. But further more, he walks the walk, and has some incredibly impressive lifting numbers to boot!
__________________
Pat Flynn - Lifestyle Augmentation Specialist
Http://www.chroniclesofstrength.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2011, 04:19 PM   #7
David Meverden
Member David Meverden is offline
 
David Meverden's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Charleston  SC
Posts: 2,802
Re: "Packing in the Neck" - Deadlift

I think a video of someone deadlifting near maximal loads with this technique would drive home better the utility and demonstrate that it isn't just a viable technique at light weight.

As for trials, explanations as to why this SHOULD be better are great, but lets get to the bottom line. If I go and do my set of 5+ deadlift with this technique how will I know it is helping? I'll feel more solid in my core? I'll get more reps? Infinite bliss and enlightenment? Maybe I shouldn't know as that would remove my objectivity
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2011, 07:07 PM   #8
Pat Flynn
Member Pat Flynn is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: West Chester  PA
Posts: 26
Re: "Packing in the Neck" - Deadlift

Here Tony G talks about packing the neck then demos a 570lb deadlift

http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_...ut_deadlifting
__________________
Pat Flynn - Lifestyle Augmentation Specialist
Http://www.chroniclesofstrength.com
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2011, 07:50 PM   #9
Michael Dries
Member Michael Dries is offline
 
Profile:
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Fair Lawn  NJ
Posts: 821
Re: "Packing in the Neck" - Deadlift

That looks familiar, as though i've seen it in a book about strength before.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2011, 10:02 PM   #10
Aaron Gainer
Member Aaron Gainer is offline
 
Aaron Gainer's Avatar
 
Profile:
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Macomb  MI
Posts: 693
Re: "Packing in the Neck" - Deadlift

Tuck your chin, hold it for the movement, problem solved.
__________________
B.S. Physical Education and Health
NSCA C.S.C.S, USAW Level 1
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Thoughts on "Forks over knives" Documentary and "The China Study" Mark Davis Nutrition 14 09-13-2011 01:32 PM
Eating plan for day-long "strength" "workouts" Christopher J Hull Nutrition 1 05-13-2011 09:03 AM
"Points for Toothbrushing aka DICE 2010: "Design Outside the Box" Presentation" David Doran Marshall Stuff and Nonsense 1 02-24-2010 02:25 PM
Neck/Back "Kink" Cameron Hummel Injuries 1 12-17-2009 10:31 PM
WOD thoughts on "As prescribed" with rest vs "Scaled" straight through Matt DeMinico Workout of the Day 15 10-02-2008 02:29 AM


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:32 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
CrossFit is a registered trademark of CrossFit Inc.