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Old 09-16-2010, 01:29 PM   #101
Jason R O'Dell
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Re: How have we arrived at this place in our evolution ?

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Originally Posted by Keith Martin View Post
Even feeling good comes at a price. We've been conditioned to think we could get something for nothing. Take a look at all the diet pills/plans, useless exercise equipment. We've been sold on "an easier way"...so much so that maybe when we find out there is no "easier" way, we don't even try anymore.
You mean I can't freeze my fat cells and blast them away? Darn.
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Old 09-16-2010, 02:28 PM   #102
Liam McKarry
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Re: How have we arrived at this place in our evolution ?

For some reason that reminds me of this:

'Man, I see in fight club the strongest and smartest men who've ever lived. I see all this potential, and I see squandering. God damn it, an entire generation pumping gas, waiting tables; slaves with white collars. Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy **** we don't need. We're the middle children of history, man. No purpose or place. We have no Great War. No Great Depression. Our Great War's a spiritual war... our Great Depression is our lives. We've all been raised on television to believe that one day we'd all be millionaires, and movie gods, and rock stars. But we won't. And we're slowly learning that fact. And we're very, very p****d off.' Tyler Durden
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Old 09-16-2010, 03:17 PM   #103
Vince Mannella
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Re: How have we arrived at this place in our evolution ?

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Originally Posted by Keith Martin View Post
Even feeling good comes at a price. We've been conditioned to think we could get something for nothing. Take a look at all the diet pills/plans, useless exercise equipment. We've been sold on "an easier way"...so much so that maybe when we find out there is no "easier" way, we don't even try anymore.
There is no easy way to be fit. It takes work. You need to get up and go, and even when you really don't feel like it...you still go.

Humans were not designed to be sloth-like. Our bodies were designed to move. Get out there and do it. Running outside here in the winter sucks. It's cold, slushy, windy, and I hate it. However I go out and I get it done. Why? Because after I am done I feel better, I know I am healthier for having done it and that makes me feel better about myself and thus improves my mood and my day.
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Old 09-16-2010, 06:05 PM   #104
Angelina Kelly
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Re: How have we arrived at this place in our evolution ?

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Originally Posted by Meghan Waldeck View Post
I wonder why we have to PROMOTE health, really? Like, why does it need to be marketed to people like a product, as if they should be convinced to take it up? If you follow what Allen suggests below you generally FEEL better. Why don't people want to feel better? Why aren't we naturally inclined to feel good anymore?

Ahh, I feel so philosophical right now.
I think we have to promote healthy eating and exercise the way we promote other health related things so yes and it is a holistic view. It starts with kids and there is a ton of marketing aimed at kids. Would a kid rather play their favorite video game or be outside? Would they rather watch their favorite tv shows? Would they rather eat a sugary cereal that is marketed towards them or a piece of fruit?

Many adults these days don't know how to read labels or even cook. They don't know what is healthy in terms of food. My favorite story was a friend told her that someone gave her a fruit cobbler recipe that was laden with sugar/butter and said it was healthy because it had fruit.

And people in general don't know that they do feel better when they exercise regularly. My mom works on her feet all day, last thing she wanted to do when she came home was exercise, all she wanted to do was sleep. Until she started exercising and then she got more energy throughout the day and didn't have as much pain.

1) eliminate government subsidies of corn, subsidize fruits and veggies instead
2) Stop interest groups from funding school nutrition programs and bring in real nutrition programs
3) Bring back PE to schools
4) Re-introduce "home-ec" in the terms of teaching kids how to cook and make healthy eating choices
5) Either give primary physicians training in nutrition beyond a basic course or enable more health programs for healthy eating/exercise
6) Expand public transportation to encourage exercise

A lot of companies are adopting 'go green' type efforts, maybe they need 'go exercise' type efforts in place as well
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Old 09-16-2010, 06:06 PM   #105
Angelina Kelly
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Re: How have we arrived at this place in our evolution ?

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Originally Posted by Jason R O'Dell View Post
You mean I can't freeze my fat cells and blast them away? Darn.
And that is the other part of it, marketing in the diet industry is crazy. People do think that there must be a pill or procedure out there that will fix them.
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Old 09-17-2010, 06:35 AM   #106
Scott Donchak
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Re: How have we arrived at this place in our evolution ?

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Originally Posted by Angelina Kelly View Post
Obesity doesn't necessarily cause health issues, other than possibly joint issues. A variety of issues can cause obesity and those issues can also cause other health issues. Does being obese automatically mean you are unhealthy?

The other factor is that obesity is visible and smoking is visible to some extent. Eating poorly, not exercising, excessive drinking, etc doesn't always have a visible manifestation.

Of course who gets more criticism in our society, a skinny person eating McDonalds or a fat person walking down the street?

Anyway, I think our degrading health is a systemic issue and until we figure out a way to promote health in an effective way, then our healthcare costs will continue to rise.
1) 99.9 times out of 100, yes, being obese automatically means you're unhealthy. Catering to that .1% is a joke.
2) The fact that the health issues I chose have visible manifestations is irrelevant. I could have easily chosen high cholesterol. (And not the “good” kind)

3) I addressed the “social” issue earlier. Obviously, because obesity is looked down upon in our society, the fat guy walking down the street probably gets more flack. Just because the social pressure is in place, however, does not give the skinny guy a free pass to squeak under the radar and gorge himself with McDonalds. Both individuals in your example have an equal obligation to stay healthy.
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Old 09-17-2010, 07:08 AM   #107
Scott Donchak
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Re: How have we arrived at this place in our evolution ?

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Originally Posted by Anne Dayton View Post
So... Depending upon your individual frame of reference, probably all people on this board and beyond are unhealthy in one way or another.

BMI - you buy into the equation as a measure of health or not
CVD - you are going to die early from a coronary from eating all that bacon or not
Suntan - all that exercise outside will result in melanoma/skin cancer or not
HFCS - soon to be renamed - you ingest any amount (no matter how minor) and you will suffer a diabetic coma and require insulin for life or not
Grains - etc.
Dairy - etc.
Vegan - etc.

The above are dietary choices where individuals have some say or control over their actions. What about those who are born with unfortunate conditions that result in a poor health quality - do we just throw them out in the wind because they might wind up costing the "system", and therefore each of us, a little more?

Should those who don't have children currently in schools pay less property tax (when a large percentage of the tax funds the excellent schools in the neighborhood)?

When that uninsured baby is born with an addiction or genetic defect, should we just say no and put the baby out in the cold?

At what point does an individual extract themselves from the community and society they belong to and say - no more - I am only responsible for myself and will only pay/fund to support myself or those who make the right choices (food/exercise, car with side airbags, genetic testing, etc.)?

Ah, the slippery slope argument... "Where do we draw the line?"

In essence, the argument being put forth is that there is no discernable way to assign fault to any health issue, therefore, we should assume no one is at fault. Furthermore, there is no concrete way to define “healthy”, so how can we set a standard.

To start, both assertions stated above are fallacies. Furthermore, by accepting this way of thinking, we ultimately remove all accountable from the individual, which will ultimately result in failure of the system.

Fault can be assigned through the actions of the individual.

Addressing your examples:

Group 1: (Choices With No Extreme Health Risks) The human body will not suffer from grain/dairy consumption in noticeable ways. Even veganism, when done properly, can be a healthy life choice. These choices present risk to the macro-health of the individual.

Group 2: (Unpreventable Medical Issues) Children born with defects are not at fault because they have the inability to perform any action that would have caused or prevented their medical condition.

Group 3: (Choices With Health Risks) Suntan would fall into this category. Exercising outside will obviously increase the risk of skin cancer/skin disease. Therefore, accountable must be placed on the individual to mitigate these risks by either wearing sun block or working out indoors. Failure to protect their skin in some manner should not be the burden of the general public.

Addressing the second assertion that there is no concrete way to define “healthy”:

Even now, we have metrics that define “healthy”. Ambiguous or otherwise flawed metrics such as BMI are being replaced with body fat calculators, blood tests, and fitness tests. We can, beyond a reasonable doubt, determine whether or not someone is healthy.

Finally, addressing your final paragraph:
Society is comprised of individuals. Humans are inherently selfish, so by removing responsibility from the individual and being given responsibility of others, the system will ultimately fail once everyone realizes they have the option of coasting. What is my incentive to eat healthy/exercise when I know Anne will pay for my medical bills?
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Old 09-17-2010, 07:10 AM   #108
Allen Tluczek
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Re: How have we arrived at this place in our evolution ?

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Originally Posted by Angelina Kelly View Post

Many adults these days don't know how to read labels or even cook. They don't know what is healthy in terms of food. My favorite story was a friend told her that someone gave her a fruit cobbler recipe that was laden with sugar/butter and said it was healthy because it had fruit.


1) eliminate government subsidies of corn, subsidize fruits and veggies instead
2) Stop interest groups from funding school nutrition programs and bring in real nutrition programs
3) Bring back PE to schools
4) Re-introduce "home-ec" in the terms of teaching kids how to cook and make healthy eating choices
5) Either give primary physicians training in nutrition beyond a basic course or enable more health programs for healthy eating/exercise
6) Expand public transportation to encourage exercise

A lot of companies are adopting 'go green' type efforts, maybe they need 'go exercise' type efforts in place as well
Many of these issues have been brought about by the loss of "food culture." Taking the discussion back into Pollan's book (which I again encourage everyone to read) because parents don't cook, kids don't cook, and everyone eats fast food. How you encourage the reversal of that trend at the national level is tricky though.

Re:
1. This is my biggest food/nutrition/health related frustration. Has anyone even thought about considering proposing this? Ever?

"Go exercise..." Where I work we are sponsoring a "Biggest Loser: Detroit." We have a team-based walking competition for prizes on a regular basis. We have weight loss challenges, on site (at most offices) pilates and yoga classes. We offer a $300 yearly credit for fitness memberships. There are a lot of thigs I don't like about my company, but the focus and support they provide for healthy employees and members is something I am actually a little proud of.
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Old 09-17-2010, 08:33 AM   #109
Rebecca Roth
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Re: How have we arrived at this place in our evolution ?

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Originally Posted by Allen Tluczek View Post
Many of these issues have been brought about by the loss of "food culture." Taking the discussion back into Pollan's book (which I again encourage everyone to read) because parents don't cook, kids don't cook, and everyone eats fast food. How you encourage the reversal of that trend at the national level is tricky though.

Re:
1. This is my biggest food/nutrition/health related frustration. Has anyone even thought about considering proposing this? Ever?
Pollan himself has been pretty consistently pushing that agenda of the need to shift our country's Ag dollars. There are also loads of documentaries and books out there chastising the dept of ag for their spending decisions.
Specifically I read a book awhile back that cited that such significant breaks are given to out of country suppliers of the types of "real food" items we are talking about, that US producers cannot currently compete with the pricing they can offer, making it undesirable to even try and farm those products locally, so of course farmers increasingly shift to products like corn/soy which do receive large subsidies in the US. Additionally, these other real food producers don't have money as a whole for the things the corn/soy agribusiness (coughmonsantocough) do - like advertising and lobbying - and the politicians are in a never ending loop of earmarking funding and breaks for those who have the money to be friendly to them rather than the underdogs.
Separately but related, earlier this year a study came out that the country is growing and importing less than half the fruits and vegetables required to meet the FDA food pyramid requirement for the population. SO they aren't even promoting adherence to their own system.
The best thing we can do is get our dollars out of the supermarket, and take them to a farmer's market, directly supporting the local growers will eventually cause the who can effect change to take notice.
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Old 09-17-2010, 09:01 AM   #110
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: How have we arrived at this place in our evolution ?

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Originally Posted by Scott Donchak View Post
Group 3: (Choices With Health Risks) Suntan would fall into this category. Exercising outside will obviously increase the risk of skin cancer/skin disease. Therefore, accountable must be placed on the individual to mitigate these risks by either wearing sun block or working out indoors. Failure to protect their skin in some manner should not be the burden of the general public.
Essentially the entire population will fall into this group for one reason or another. Moreover, actions taken to reduce one risk may well increase others. (avoid sun exposure, get a vitamin D deficiency, for instance) Nor is there a clear medical consensus about just how risky various behaviors are, much less about comparative risk. Consider the aerobic fitness of a competitive cyclist, vs. his increased sun exposure and risk of crashes. While your standard might make philosophical sense, it would quickly collapse if forced to deal with real world examples.

Katherine
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