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Old 02-14-2015, 07:07 PM   #21
Shawn M Wilson
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Re: Is Rich Froning the next Lance Armstrong?

2 years to put on 10lbs of lean muscle is not hard. He was not 6% body fat. Maybe closer to 8-10%

The difference between that is 175.5 LM and 19.5lbs of fat at 10% vs 179.4 LM and 15.6 BF. So 4lbs of solid muscle can make a good difference on certain lifts.

Now over the years he has been working on his form. My snatch increased 20lbs in one training session by learning to extend moe before my pull. His technique is great on most lifts. Daily training and technique work will also help with numbers increasing.

I would like to believe he is drug free. Only time will ever tell if he wasn't but we seem to always rehash this debate every year.

Can his gains be done through hard work, good genetics, and a solid foundation? yes they can.

Can his gains be done through those things and PEDs? Sure.

I like to go with the innocent until proven guilty since what he did was possible through both methods.
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Old 02-14-2015, 08:42 PM   #22
Christopher Morris
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Re: Is Rich Froning the next Lance Armstrong?

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Originally Posted by Jason A Smith View Post
To be clear, Lance Armstrong never (and I mean NEVER) failed a test ever and is likely one of the most tested athletes ever. He vehemently denied it for a long time and TBH all of the guys he was competing with were likely doing something similar.
Armstrong failed a retest. Samples are saved, and some samples were retested and failed due to advances in testing methods.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/12/sp...pagewanted=all (wfs)

"As part of its investigation, USADA said it recently obtained additional data from French officials who had retested Armstrong’s samples from the 1999 Tour. For procedural reasons, those samples cannot be used to sanction Armstrong. But the USADA report indicated that advances in EPO testing since then conclusively showed that he used the hormone. The report said the retesting produced 'resoundingly positive values' from six samples."

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Originally Posted by Jason A Smith View Post
He (Froning) trains a lot of volume from what most have seen and rarely do you see him eat much, which is way more of a red flag than anything.
sigh....

I don't think this makes for the most interesting media (which may account for the lack of eating you claim), but let's watch Rich Froning, Jr. cook, order food, and eat:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4hcCQhfIoc&t=1m49s (wfs)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gewdcAkUtac (wfs)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pc2tXRBJReQ&t=1m0s (wfs)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3C6rcGxeSSc (wfs)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3C6rcGxeSSc&t=14m45s (wfs)

I actually found all these clips because your comment first made me think of a video clip where he was eating out of a Tupperware tub full of peanut butter, and I thought, "Dang. That's a lot of peanut butter." I didn't find that clip, but hopefully the rest of these will do.

I get the impression from these videos that he eats a lot.

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Originally Posted by Shawn M Wilson View Post
Can his gains be done through hard work, good genetics, and a solid foundation? yes they can.

Can his gains be done through those things and PEDs? Sure.

I like to go with the innocent until proven guilty since what he did was possible through both methods.
I fully agree with that you Shawn. We don't know which way Rich's incredible achievements came from.

http://games.crossfit.com/video/rich-froning-day-office (wfs)

This video is relevant to the discussion. It shows Rich's reaction to a drug test. I had the impression from the video that it was an unannounced drug test. The description says he had a 15 hour advance notice. Critics will say he had time for a masking agent if he is using PEDs. A workout at 10:45am, a workout at 12:00pm, a workout at 1:15pm, three workouts at 5:15pm. Volume supports hard work as the source of his success.
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Last edited by Christopher Morris : 02-14-2015 at 09:00 PM.
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Old 02-16-2015, 02:07 AM   #23
Alex Burden
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Re: Is Rich Froning the next Lance Armstrong?

This is so typical within anything... journalists build someone or something up only to try and rip it apart later to make a name for themselves. If he really wanted to have something to write about all he would have to do is dig deep into the world of European soccer, a multi billion dollar industry.

So he put on some muscle mass under 2 years, that is not allot at that age when he is still growing.

Plus what they did not mention was the fact that RF also stopped working and moved over to fulltime Crossfit. With RF being able to concentrate 100% on his training and wellbeing then you are surely going to see gains. If I remember correctly we are normally at our peak strength when we reach around 24 (based on old information and trends) but today you see people hitting WR's much older. RF's technique is impeccable, thus easier to make gains which he has done.

Things have changed in the world and many journalists do not look at the big picture, they are out for 1 thing only.

There is only one thing to do with this article.... use it as toilet paper and flush it....
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Old 02-16-2015, 05:16 AM   #24
Helen M Brennan
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Re: Is Rich Froning the next Lance Armstrong?

I am quite content to enjoy the spectacle of the Games.. with an open mind.
I would have a bit more faith in the testing if there had been a competitor or two actually detected doping ( the odds say there are some)..however I enjoyed the Armstrong years ( and was dismayed at his fall from grace) and i enjoy the CF Games and remain in awe of the competitors and their abilities until it is proven that they have cheated...
I believe in innocent until proven otherwise...

H
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Old 02-16-2015, 06:09 AM   #25
Ben Abbott
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Re: Is Rich Froning the next Lance Armstrong?

"Over a 2 year period his weight ballooned from 185 to 195lbs (5.4%), his clean-and-jerk from 255 to 325lbs (27.4%), snatch 200-270lbs (35%), deadlift 455-525lbs (15.4%) and back squat 365-425lbs (16.4%)."

I think most of us are in agreement that adding 10lbs of weight in two years is not inconceivable, especially when moving from part-time to full-time athlete.

Additionally, if you look at his lifts, those with a high degree of technique are what increased the most, where the power lifts had much smaller gains. This can easily be attributed to refinement of technique (C&J and Snatch) from more training and added muscle (deadlift and squat) from focusing on being an athlete.
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Old 02-16-2015, 07:56 AM   #26
Cooper Mitchell
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Re: Is Rich Froning the next Lance Armstrong?

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Originally Posted by Helen M Brennan View Post
I am quite content to enjoy the spectacle of the Games.. with an open mind.
I would have a bit more faith in the testing if there had been a competitor or two actually detected doping ( the odds say there are some)..however I enjoyed the Armstrong years ( and was dismayed at his fall from grace) and i enjoy the CF Games and remain in awe of the competitors and their abilities until it is proven that they have cheated...
I believe in innocent until proven otherwise...

H
I agree with you. I enjoyed watching Lance, and I enjoy watching Froning. I genuinely hope he is not using PED's.
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Old 02-16-2015, 09:12 AM   #27
Struan Potter
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Re: Is Rich Froning the next Lance Armstrong?

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Originally Posted by Christopher Morris View Post
A workout at 10:45am, a workout at 12:00pm, a workout at 1:15pm, three workouts at 5:15pm. Volume supports hard work as the source of his success.
But how does he sustain this workload? 6 workouts in 1 day? I can't imagine he maintains that workload over a extended period. It's my belief that a workload of over 13 sessions per week isn't sustainable for an elite athlete without PEDs.
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Old 02-16-2015, 09:21 AM   #28
Andrew Bell
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Re: Is Rich Froning the next Lance Armstrong?

This thread is too funny. Thanks for the laughs. Hadn't been on here in a while, good to read this stuff again.
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Old 02-16-2015, 09:27 AM   #29
Christopher Morris
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Re: Is Rich Froning the next Lance Armstrong?

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Originally Posted by Struan Potter View Post
But how does he sustain this workload? 6 workouts in 1 day? I can't imagine he maintains that workload over a extended period. It's my belief that a workload of over 13 sessions per week isn't sustainable for an elite athlete without PEDs.
Either he's taken years to gradually build up (carefully with good form) to that workload, or he's using PEDs to improve recovery. It's unknown. The best information we currently have is that he says he doesn't use, others that know him say he doesn't use, and it has not been reported that he has failed any drug test.

Like others commenting here, I believe innocent until proven guilty and enjoy the sport as is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Helen M Brennan View Post
I would have a bit more faith in the testing if there had been a competitor or two actually detected doping ( the odds say there are some)
Dave Castro commented on Instagram (not wfs - language?) a CrossFit athlete was making it difficult for drug testers to do their job, i.e., high suspicion of PED use, and that athlete was disqualified for this 2015 season. As far as I know, that athlete hasn't been identified.
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Old 02-16-2015, 11:34 AM   #30
John Drohan
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Re: Is Rich Froning the next Lance Armstrong?

With respect to Armstrong, while the fact that he "never failed a test" may be true, his success never passed my statistical eyeball test.

First, you have a population of clean athletes. It's very difficult and highly unlikely to be the best among them. It's possible of course, as someone has to be the best, but to remain so after years and years is very, very tough. Then, take into account the mean-shift in performance among that population who are PED users. The probability of a clean athlete being the best among THAT population is just downright impossible. It's like a +7 sigma instance.

To be fair to Rich, over the past 4 years, the gap between he and the rest of the field is shrinking. The sport is relatively young enough that applying the same statistical logic check to his performance may not be valid.

Regardless, I've met Rich in person and have nothing but respect for him. While his success will bring him much unwarranted scrutiny, I believe he's earned the right to be proven guilty and is otherwise clean.
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