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Old 05-23-2015, 04:52 AM   #91
Dare Vodusek
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Re: Is Rich Froning the next Lance Armstrong?

Agree.

But what if some females have some hormone issues and actually produce more testosterone (naturally), or like I've posted a link about that olympic athlete, are almost a man, and only genetic testing shows their are females because of chromosones?

that is why i also said, hopefully some "female" does not take advantage like that over the other girls.
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Old 05-23-2015, 07:13 AM   #92
Christopher Morris
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Re: Is Rich Froning the next Lance Armstrong?

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Originally Posted by Desmond Pegrum View Post
This is NOT about appearance and what we may or may not find attractive

This is about women in crossfit showing un natural muscularity levels (and bodyfat levels) which are not easily achievable without PEDS. Remember women have vastly different physical makeup to men.
This is a better conversation, the one I was hoping to have when I first called you out.

But then...

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Originally Posted by Desmond Pegrum View Post
She looks like a man in drag ! she even runs like a man !

women's level of muscularity/vascularity

Some crossfit women are approaching female bodybuilder levels of muscularity and low bodyfat levels and we all know EVERY professional and most serious non pro bodybuilders take more drugs than your local pharmacy sells in a month.
You continue to debate appearance factors. Which is why I agreed more with your first statement: "I really don't like athletes being accused, even passively without any real evidence, it's not fair"

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Originally Posted by Dare Vodusek View Post
Agree.

But what if some females have some hormone issues and actually produce more testosterone (naturally), or like I've posted a link about that olympic athlete, are almost a man, and only genetic testing shows their are females because of chromosones?

that is why i also said, hopefully some "female" does not take advantage like that over the other girls.
If a woman has female anatomy and XX chromosomes, isn't that all it takes to compete as a female, regardless of natural testosterone levels? She can't help natural levels, any more than a tall basketball player can help his height.

If she were taking supplements to boost testosterone, therein lies the cheat.
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Old 05-23-2015, 01:29 PM   #93
Desmond Pegrum
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Re: Is Rich Froning the next Lance Armstrong?

The problem is Chris, you cannot separate the appearance aspect from this particular debate

But it's the appearance of un natural amounts of lean muscle mass on a female athlete, not that they are ugly or unfeminine which i'm debating.
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Old 05-23-2015, 01:50 PM   #94
Christopher Morris
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Re: Is Rich Froning the next Lance Armstrong?

It's my opinion that appearance is a poor indicator of PED use. A fit appearance can be achieved by PED use or good nutrition and intense exercise. You can't conclude that every woman that looks a certain way is using PEDs.
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Old 05-23-2015, 02:42 PM   #95
Luke Sirakos
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Re: Is Rich Froning the next Lance Armstrong?

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It's my opinion that appearance is a poor indicator of PED use. A fit appearance can be achieved by PED use or good nutrition and intense exercise. You can't conclude that every woman that looks a certain way is using PEDs.
That might be true but you cannot achieve certain appearances without PED use
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Old 05-23-2015, 05:50 PM   #96
Helen M Brennan
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Re: Is Rich Froning the next Lance Armstrong?

it continues to be a source of irritation to me that the legitimacy of a female athletes ability and success remains tied to her physical appearance. Way back inthe day Billie Jean King was roundly criticised for her masculine appearance as are other muscular female athletes.

if some of us naturally produce higher levels of testosterone then we get referred to a "females' and the legitimacy of being a competitor is questioned.

If the size of male attributes were the mark of male attractiveness then Michelangelo's David would be a fail.

the more things change the more they stay the same...

H
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Old 05-26-2015, 07:45 AM   #97
Shawn M Wilson
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Re: Is Rich Froning the next Lance Armstrong?

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Originally Posted by Helen M Brennan View Post
it continues to be a source of irritation to me that the legitimacy of a female athletes ability and success remains tied to her physical appearance. Way back inthe day Billie Jean King was roundly criticised for her masculine appearance as are other muscular female athletes.

if some of us naturally produce higher levels of testosterone then we get referred to a "females' and the legitimacy of being a competitor is questioned.

If the size of male attributes were the mark of male attractiveness then Michelangelo's David would be a fail.

the more things change the more they stay the same...

H
While I agree some women do look that way because of drugs, I do agree that too many people take the cheap route and associate women and drugs based totally on looks

I competed in track since I was 8 years old and into college on a scholarship. I knew women from many walks of life.

Some women looked more "muscular" because of genetics and their training. I heard many people use the whole "drug" question when I knew the women were clean. Some blame it on a lack of knowledge and others on trying to point why they were better.

Is one of the things I dislike about the whole world we live in. We make comments and accusations with no knowledge or proof. Somehow we feel we are justified to make them because we read something online or in an email and feel educated enough to now make claims.

If crossfit has taught me one thing then here it is:

When you lift right and often, eat right, and train hard your body can be transformed into an amazing sight to behold.
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Old 05-26-2015, 08:06 AM   #98
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Re: Is Rich Froning the next Lance Armstrong?

I think many of us have become jaded by athletes who we all assumed were clean only to be proven liars later. How many times have we heard athletes get in front of a mic and scream they were clean and how dare anyone claim otherwise. Then the proof comes out. I've always tried to give anyone the benefit of the doubt but it's become harder and harder. Fool me once...
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Old 05-26-2015, 11:03 AM   #99
Luke Sirakos
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Re: Is Rich Froning the next Lance Armstrong?

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I think many of us have become jaded by athletes who we all assumed were clean only to be proven liars later. How many times have we heard athletes get in front of a mic and scream they were clean and how dare anyone claim otherwise. Then the proof comes out. I've always tried to give anyone the benefit of the doubt but it's become harder and harder. Fool me once...
This is why I look at it more in terms of I assume there are games athletes who are dirty but I don't speculate on individual athletes because I don't believe it is fair to accuse someone of being dirty when there is no proof.
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Old 05-28-2015, 11:47 AM   #100
Christopher Morris
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Re: Is Rich Froning the next Lance Armstrong?

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Originally Posted by Desmond Pegrum View Post
Caldas in the California Regional, can't tell me there isn't something fishy there

She looks like a man in drag ! she even runs like a man !
Ana Caldas placed 1st in event 1 in the California Regionals.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLvw0KKSNTU&t=71m0s (wfs)

I'm going to guess that you think she looks like a man because she has broad shoulders and narrow hips. Narrow hips may be the reason you think she runs like a man. Personally, I don't think she runs like a man.

Women have a more feminine appearance if the shoulder to hips ratio favors the hips. If the hips are narrower, the difference between the hip socket and the center of gravity is smaller, causing a different running gait.

Hip width has nothing to do with PED use.

Caldas has well developed deltoid, trapezius, and latissmus muscles. Good for her. That gave her an advantage and a win in a light snatch event like Randy. Was it hard work or PEDs? Impossible to say just by looking at her.

I really don't like athletes being accused, even passively without any real evidence, it's not fair
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