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Old 05-29-2015, 11:00 AM   #111
John Drohan
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Re: Is Rich Froning the next Lance Armstrong?

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Originally Posted by Steven Wingo View Post
Some people in this world of billions have in fact hit the genetic lottery. While most of us fall within a few standard deviations of the "norm" on a bell curve, there are people WAY out there on the fringes--those with lots of potential for gains and advancement and those with very poor potential.
Good points Steven. But by that argument, you have to ask what is more probable - being on the fringe edges of the population distribution or having access to PED's. The stats say one is much more likely than the other.

Another poster mentioned it earlier, and I think to some degree it's true. If you're a fan of other sports, you're just so jaded by the hypocrisy of the athletes who lied for years only to be proven guilty of PED usage.

There are still a lot of equally valid arguments for those who are suspicious of usage among Crossfit athletes and for those who aren't. I think whether it's fair to be suspicious or not is a personal choice.
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Old 05-29-2015, 06:47 PM   #112
Chris Guillermo
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Re: Is Rich Froning the next Lance Armstrong?

Most people can't or aren't willing to put in the type of work to be great at something and this is where the accusations of cheating or steroids comes from. Maybe just maybe Rich just out works everyone.
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Old 05-29-2015, 11:41 PM   #113
Dare Vodusek
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Re: Is Rich Froning the next Lance Armstrong?

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Maybe just maybe Rich just out works everyone.
So did Lance, his training was above all, turned out he is a lying scumbag.

Maybe just maybe, folks on PEDs can outwork everyone, because od PEDs. And those who are clean have no chances to train that much?
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Old 05-30-2015, 03:23 AM   #114
Steven Wingo
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Re: Is Rich Froning the next Lance Armstrong?

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Originally Posted by John Drohan View Post
Good points Steven. But by that argument, you have to ask what is more probable - being on the fringe edges of the population distribution or having access to PED's. The stats say one is much more likely than the other.

Another poster mentioned it earlier, and I think to some degree it's true. If you're a fan of other sports, you're just so jaded by the hypocrisy of the athletes who lied for years only to be proven guilty of PED usage.

There are still a lot of equally valid arguments for those who are suspicious of usage among Crossfit athletes and for those who aren't. I think whether it's fair to be suspicious or not is a personal choice.
I would argue it is more likely those who rise to the top out of hundreds of thousands of competitor's are those who are apt to be genetically gifted (in addition to working their *** off). A few hundred make it to Regionals out over 200k who participated. Pretty much any athlete could get ahold of PEDs if they wanted. And frankly I'd be shocked if there aren't a whole lot of them out there who aren't at Regionals and are not getting tested who do use them--but they aren't at Regionals. The PEDs didn't cause them to rise to the top. Genetics, in addition to the work ethic, are likely what separates the elite athletes from the rest of us.

---

While it may be a personal choice on whether to speculate regarding whether someone is using them, I think it is shortsighted to believe that any particular athlete is using them based upon how they look. And it seems unfair to me to publicly name people and sully their name on such scant speculative evidence.
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Old 05-30-2015, 06:16 AM   #115
Luke Sirakos
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Re: Is Rich Froning the next Lance Armstrong?

Steve, are you saying that you think there isn't a single Regionals athlete who uses PEDs? Not asking if you can name them, just in general you think the entire field is clean?
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Old 05-31-2015, 03:53 AM   #116
Steven Wingo
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Re: Is Rich Froning the next Lance Armstrong?

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Steve, are you saying that you think there isn't a single Regionals athlete who uses PEDs? Not asking if you can name them, just in general you think the entire field is clean?
Given the widespread use in other sports, and the substantial efforts in big money sports to develop doping methods to stay ahead of the available testing, it would be my opinion it is highly unlikely the entire Regionals field is clean. Who knows, maybe a significant portion of the field is not clean. I don't know the answer. And I think it is fine to discuss the topic, which is an important issue.

But here is where I have concerns: while people have a right to say whatever they want--that whole freedom of speech thing is important--my opinion is that it is misguided and inappropriate to name specific people and sully their name based upon "how they look" or even how they perform. It seems even more bothersome to me when some reference females "looking like a man." Some women are just flat out more masculine. I've seen many women who look quite masculine who are not involved in competitive sports and have no reason to use PEDs. Just like there are guys who look more feminine. There is huge genetic variation among the human population.

I will say this--even if there is widespread doping, genetics and work ethic are still the most important factors in who reaches elite status. Doping is a problem because it causes an unfair playing field by allowing those who cheat to gain a very slight advantage over the "clean equals" who aren't cheating. But your average Jane or Joe will never become a Camille LeBlanc-Bazinet or Rich Froning by the use of PEDs.
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Old 05-31-2015, 08:58 AM   #117
John Drohan
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Re: Is Rich Froning the next Lance Armstrong?

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Originally Posted by Steven Wingo View Post
Given the widespread use in other sports, and the substantial efforts in big money sports to develop doping methods to stay ahead of the available testing, it would be my opinion it is highly unlikely the entire Regionals field is clean. Who knows, maybe a significant portion of the field is not clean. I don't know the answer. And I think it is fine to discuss the topic, which is an important issue.

But here is where I have concerns: while people have a right to say whatever they want--that whole freedom of speech thing is important--my opinion is that it is misguided and inappropriate to name specific people and sully their name based upon "how they look" or even how they perform. It seems even more bothersome to me when some reference females "looking like a man." Some women are just flat out more masculine. I've seen many women who look quite masculine who are not involved in competitive sports and have no reason to use PEDs. Just like there are guys who look more feminine. There is huge genetic variation among the human population.

I will say this--even if there is widespread doping, genetics and work ethic are still the most important factors in who reaches elite status. Doping is a problem because it causes an unfair playing field by allowing those who cheat to gain a very slight advantage over the "clean equals" who aren't cheating. But your average Jane or Joe will never become a Camille LeBlanc-Bazinet or Rich Froning by the use of PEDs.
Well put Steven. I think you've clarified your stance clearly and I agree. Thanks.
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Old 05-31-2015, 11:11 AM   #118
Luke Sirakos
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Re: Is Rich Froning the next Lance Armstrong?

I definitely agree as well. Of course, I doesn't really matter how great and hard working someone is IF those at the top are taking steroids as well, they will never catch up. Not saying I think Rich or Camille are dirty but hypothetically, if they were and you combined great genetics, an extremely intense work ethic, and PEDs then no natural athlete would come close.
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Old 05-31-2015, 09:39 PM   #119
Zac Metz
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Re: Is Rich Froning the next Lance Armstrong?

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You would not all of a sudden just be in the games 1yr later because of those magical drugs.
Thats... wrong. Not for EVERY average Joe out there, but there are most definitely athletes that would make the games after a full year of PED use. That athlete probably already is somewhere near/is already a regionals level athlete, but that doesnt change the fact that a full year of PEDs in addition to an already good base level and work ethic would most definitely push you into the games.

No, I havent done PEDs personally, but I have seen friends add 100+ lbs to a deadlift in 1-2 months, start doing 2 or 3 a days with no problems, etc. And thats not beginner gains either, thats deadlift going from 450+ to 550+. Its already been stated before, PEDs allow you to recover more quickly and in turn make more progress. Combine that with a really solid base level of fitness and a good work ethic and its easy to make that "jump". Just because you haven't personally done something doesnt mean you cant witness the changes first hand.


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I've read that PED users only fail a drug test if you're stupid, that it's an IQ test, not a drug test.
I've heard this a LOT actually. A friend of mine at our gym was saying the majority of PED busts were never failed tests, but people getting name dropped and caught that way. From what I understand its not overly difficult to avoid popping on tests with all the masking agents, test notification time, etc out there. Its more a matter of not being stupid.

And for my (not really that important) "speculation" on PEDs in Crossfit, I highly doubt the games field is clean, let alone regionals. Any high level sport with a significant sum of money on the line means people will cheat. And as Chris Morris said, its not THAT hard to avoid failing a PED test. I wont accuse any one person, based on appearance or otherwise, but I think in a few more years we will get the first "scandal" with PEDs in Crossfit. If we dont, that is fantastic, but I for one wont be surprised to see that this sport has the same struggles as every other sport.

PEDs in sports are nothing new, there is no reason to think that Crossfit is somehow "different" and just because its Crossfit everyone will not try to get ahead.
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Old 05-31-2015, 11:51 PM   #120
Alex Burden
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Re: Is Rich Froning the next Lance Armstrong?

There is not a sport in the world where at least 1 person is taking some type of PED to reach the top of his or her sport. There is no difference for CF either.... there is more than 1 person abusing PEDs... who... absolutely no idea and it is wrong to guess who as until someone has failed a test, until then they are innocent.

As long as there is money involved there is always going to be some type of abuse to reach the top. The lifestyle that comes with being at the top of any sport can be great and who wouldn't like to give up work and just concentrate on their sport.

As long as there is a world championship in some type of sport there will we someone using PEDs.. Just look at the Turkish weightlifters over the past year - at least 10 people have failed tests, Russia has had more than 20 failed tests by athletes if I rememeber... the list just goes on.
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