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Old 09-21-2013, 11:41 AM   #1
Alex Chaney
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Dynamic Effort without accommodating resistance

I'm currently lifting out of my garage and I have basic equipment such as a bar, dumbbells, bench and rack with plates but no bands or chains. I do the westside program but I do not know what percentage to lift with on DE days without accommodating resistance. Any ideas?
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Old 09-21-2013, 11:56 AM   #2
Jim O'Brien
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Re: Dynamic Effort without accommodating resistance

I will have to do some research if nobody knows before I find out but I think some articles were written by Louise or Dave Tate that mentions what percentages to use. Westside didn't always use bands and chains. They were around before bands hit the scene.

One thing a lot of people don't do when they "train westside" is they miss the goal for the day. In other words, the max effort day is designed to make you strain. In order for the ME day to be effective, a lifter HAS to fail. If he/she doesn't miss, they don't know if they have strained maximally.

As for the topic at hand, the dynamic effort day is designed to have the lifter lift the weight at maximum speed through the range of motion, especially through the range where you would normally miss the lift. For example, if you normally miss a bench press three inches off the chest, you need to be able to have the bar at maximum speed going into that position. What that does is move your sticking point higher over time. If you can move it up high enough you will have better leverage and be able to finish the lift.

So, to answer your question, the percentages aren't as important as speed. Just be sure you are able to move the bar at maximum speed and you'll be fine.
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Old 09-21-2013, 12:50 PM   #3
Robert Fabsik
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Re: Dynamic Effort without accommodating resistance

With accommodating resistance bench is typically:

40-55% straight weight plus 20-30% bands or chains at the top

Top= 60-85% depending on the combination you use.

With squat

50-60% straight weight plus 25% band or chains at the top.

Top= 75-85% at the top.

Therefore, I'd probably try my bench around 60% and see how it moves.

I'd try my squat around 70/75% and see how it moves.

Deadlifts can be as low as 60, but I think you'd be OK in the 70-80% range.

As Jim suggested, see how it goes. If it is moving fast, try a slightly higher weight. If it is moving slow, go down. But it needs to be challenging to be fast, not so light it just bounces up. You need a weight that you have to keep accelerating through.

You might want to look up some stuff that Sam Byrd and Josh Bryant have been doing for CAT (compensatory acceleration training).
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Old 09-21-2013, 02:20 PM   #4
Andrew Bell
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Re: Dynamic Effort without accommodating resistance

I use to alternate between 50-60-70% without bands/chains, etc. the difference in weight would determine the reps/sets. More weight less work needed in terms of sets/reps obviously.

Worked great for me.
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Old 09-21-2013, 03:38 PM   #5
Kane Greene
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Re: Dynamic Effort without accommodating resistance

A lifter has to fail on max effort day to know they have strained? That's a pile of bull****. Why would you want to train to fail?

You have your ME variation exercises that you rotate. The goal is to PR on that variation each time it comes up. Sometimes it's a big PR sometimes it may be 5lbs. If you hit a PR tak it and walk away. You've just accomplished somethingyou couldn't do previously. There's nothing wrong with leaving a little in the tank. Psych wise its way more beneficial. If you hit a 10lb PR and its hard and then try for a 20lb PR and fail its easy to get caught up in the failure and not the previous success. Then that negativity carries on throughout the rest of your session.

Train for success.

If there are typos its be cause I'm on mobile phone.
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Old 09-21-2013, 05:50 PM   #6
Jim O'Brien
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Re: Dynamic Effort without accommodating resistance

Kane,

I understand that you are trying to PR on ME day and, while that is the goal, it won't always happen. As long as you are going all out and STRAIN against the weight you are doing what you should be doing. I have talked with Louie countless times, trained with Jim Wendler for about a year when I was powerlifting and both have said the same thing. You have to work up until you miss. Obviously this was before Jim's 5/3/1 ideas but if you don't work up to a weight you miss you won't know for sure if you are pushing a maximal load.

I agree that there are times you wouldn't want to push to failure for a variety of reasons but aside from injuries or cns fatigue you should be going until you miss a weight. Louis has said many time that in order to succeed you can't be afraid to fail.

I am not suggesting that you should work up to a weight that you get stuck at the bottom of the lift with absolutely no chance of moving it. What I am saying is that a weight should be reached that you get moving and have to really grind but just don't quite have enough strength to get.

The main ME lifts don't build the lift. They teach you to strain through various points of the competition lifts. The assistance lifts build strength.

You can agree or not but this is what I have been told face to face by Lou. You can call him yourself and talk with him if you like. I guess there is a chance I misunderstood but this is the stuff he told me when I was competing.
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Old 09-21-2013, 06:18 PM   #7
Paulo Santos
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Re: Dynamic Effort without accommodating resistance

If you don't have bands or chains, just do paused speed bench as described in the cube.
Week 1: 8x3 @ 60%
Week 2: 6x2 @ 65%
Week 3: 5x2 @ 70%
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Old 09-21-2013, 08:07 PM   #8
Robert Fabsik
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Re: Dynamic Effort without accommodating resistance

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim O'Brien View Post
Kane,

I have talked with Louie countless times, trained with Jim Wendler for about a year when I was powerlifting and both have said the same thing. You have to work up until you miss. Obviously this was before Jim's 5/3/1 ideas but if you don't work up to a weight you miss you won't know for sure if you are pushing a maximal load.
Not to split hairs, but when did you last talk to him?

At the powerlifting cert and more of his recent stuff, his recommendation for ME Day is hit a lift at 90%, maybe one more lift, and then set a record. If you set a record go home and save it for another day.

So if my bench is 100lbs, my first work set would be 90, then if 90 was tough, I might do 95 or 100, and then hit 105. Unless, 105 sailed up easily, I'll try 110 next time around.
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Old 09-21-2013, 08:30 PM   #9
Jim O'Brien
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Re: Dynamic Effort without accommodating resistance

It has been a while. After thinking of what I posted in response to Kane I think I may have been a bit too general. Lou's response was in regards to MY needs so it may not have been what is suggested for all. However, I do think that during a ME day you should work to a maximum lift which would suggest that you would fail in attempt for a new max most days.
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Old 09-22-2013, 10:20 AM   #10
Bryan Hood
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Re: Dynamic Effort without accommodating resistance

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim O'Brien View Post
One thing a lot of people don't do when they "train westside" is they miss the goal for the day. In other words, the max effort day is designed to make you strain. In order for the ME day to be effective, a lifter HAS to fail. If he/she doesn't miss, they don't know if they have strained maximally.
You are wrong. I don't know where you got that misinformation but it's not true. You should always leave a little in the tank when training. The ONLY time you would miss a lift is in competition and that's even frowned upon by Westside, but it happens. You should hit all lifts successfully. Louie, if you've ever heard him speak, is anti-missing lifts. Period. M/E days should be about 92, 94 and 98% of 1RM.
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