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Exercises Movements, technique & proper execution

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Old 07-22-2008, 12:36 PM   #1
James Montgomery
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Programming question Press, Push Press / Overhead Squat/back squat

I am wondering about doing two types of movements on the same day- eg.

Overhead Squats 8,6,4,4,4- last almost to failure.
Squats 6,4,4,4- last set comfortable.
Deadlifts 6,4,4,4,4 - I tried to warm up on 8- too much weight for my grip.
Press 8,4,4, afterwhich I fried out and did push press 4,4,4 adding weight last two sets.

My question- should I be seperating overheads and back squats- working each with more weight- I am almost at failure with overheads at light weights and the squats feel good heavier.
Same with military- often when I do squat/dead/Press combo my last few sets end up to failure (not something Im trying to do.

Also - Beyond 1RM, Im not sure how to choose the number of reps Im looking for. Any advice appreciated.
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Old 07-22-2008, 12:55 PM   #2
David Wood
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Re: Programming question Press, Push Press / Overhead Squat/back squat

I have occasionally done a workout sort of like this. I have no idea if it's good or not, but I like it, and it's quick:

Warm up thoroughly.

3 sets of 3 reps in OH squat . . . light, medium, heavy
Conveniently, a "heavy" OH squat is a "light" front squat, so:
3 sets of 3 reps in the Front Squat . . . light, medium, heavy
Conveniently again, a "heavy" Front Squat is a "light" Back Squat, so:
3 sets of 3 reps in the back squat . . . light, medium, heavy
You guessed it . .. followed by 3 sets of 3 reps in the DL .. . light, medium, heavy.

With this progression, I go from 95 pounds in the Light OH squat to 335 - 365 in the "heavy" DL.

If I was going to do a press, I would do it between the sets with the OH squat, since my light/medium/heavy press weights are about the same as my OH squat (maybe a little higher).
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Old 07-23-2008, 02:02 AM   #3
James Montgomery
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Re: Programming question Press, Push Press / Overhead Squat/back squat

Thanks- thats golden- I almost did front squats with the same thinking- should have- your progression is nicely balanced- I feel great after that workout- came home and worked on the house and still no soreness except in delts- which might be helped if I follow your suggestion on the order.

Thanks again.
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Old 07-23-2008, 03:59 AM   #4
Leonid Soubbotine
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Re: Programming question Press, Push Press / Overhead Squat/back squat

"Conveniently, a "heavy" OH squat" - the more proficient you get the closer the two become and eventually OHS can bypass the FS due to the better bar positioning (as in back squat) as long as shoulders can support the load.

James - here's what worked well for me as far as developing the OHS.

1. Working the shoulder mobility/flexibility. Worked up to hands touching above the head with broomstick and up to 100 lbs.
2. Working the back squat.
3. Various overhead carries - kb's, dumbbels, barbells, rarely slosh pipe and heavy bag.
4. Learning to split jerk from behind neck with snatch grip.

Now my OHS is 275 and the last time I front squatted heavy for a single it was 286. Back squat is 392 if that makes any difference.

I have to honestly say - working the OHS heavy is pretty unnecessary and it beats up your wrists in no time. Snatching is a better option since you're only holding the bar overhead for a second.

As long as your flexibility is good and you're doing some ohs to warmup, and do some OHS once every other week - you should be progressing quite well.
Spend the rest of the time back squatting.
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Old 07-23-2008, 05:54 AM   #5
Justin Algera
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Re: Programming question Press, Push Press / Overhead Squat/back squat

My biggest issue with the OHS is jerking it into position after while... Last night I did 5x5 OHS and got up to 200 lbs on my last set. I dropped it on my last rep, and couldnt jerk it back up to finish it. But I agree, back squatting has really helped. I been doing SS for a while now, and my OHS is getting much better. It really is the jerking and the wrist pain right now that is the limiting factor on them for me. I thought about replacing the BS with the OHS in the routine once a week, but reading what Leonid says, maybe Ill replace it every other week?
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Old 07-23-2008, 07:06 AM   #6
Leonid Soubbotine
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Re: Programming question Press, Push Press / Overhead Squat/back squat

The thing about the OHS is that it's pretty useless in general as far as training goes. It's more about demonstrating strength, flexibility, balance but there are different means to train that.
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Old 07-23-2008, 07:09 PM   #7
David Wood
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Re: Programming question Press, Push Press / Overhead Squat/back squat

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonid Soubbotine View Post
"Conveniently, a "heavy" OH squat" - the more proficient you get the closer the two become and eventually OHS can bypass the FS due to the better bar positioning (as in back squat) as long as shoulders can support the load.
True. But I have a LONG way to go before I'm there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonid Soubbotine View Post
The thing about the OHS is that it's pretty useless in general as far as training goes. It's more about demonstrating strength, flexibility, balance but there are different means to train that.
I'm not sure I can agree with this (that it's "pretty useless in general")?

a) something that is good for "demonstrating strength, flexibility, balance" might help in training them, yes? I agree that there are other methods to train those things, but nothing I did ever asked for all 3 at once like the OHS.

b) the OHS (for me) is as much about developing core strength as anything else . . . which it seems to do in ways that nothing else works.


I wouldn't think the OHS should be trained to excluding other stuff (nothing is that important), but I would not dismiss it as "useless".
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Old 07-24-2008, 06:52 AM   #8
John Alston
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Re: Programming question Press, Push Press / Overhead Squat/back squat

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Wood View Post
I have occasionally done a workout sort of like this. I have no idea if it's good or not, but I like it, and it's quick:

Warm up thoroughly.

3 sets of 3 reps in OH squat . . . light, medium, heavy
Conveniently, a "heavy" OH squat is a "light" front squat, so:
3 sets of 3 reps in the Front Squat . . . light, medium, heavy
Conveniently again, a "heavy" Front Squat is a "light" Back Squat, so:
3 sets of 3 reps in the back squat . . . light, medium, heavy
You guessed it . .. followed by 3 sets of 3 reps in the DL .. . light, medium, heavy.

With this progression, I go from 95 pounds in the Light OH squat to 335 - 365 in the "heavy" DL.

If I was going to do a press, I would do it between the sets with the OH squat, since my light/medium/heavy press weights are about the same as my OH squat (maybe a little higher).
WHat kind of progress have you seen on this routine, David?
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Old 07-24-2008, 07:07 AM   #9
Leonid Soubbotine
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Re: Programming question Press, Push Press / Overhead Squat/back squat

David - you won't get strong with it.

As far as CF goes - OHS is a great ool.
As far as strength training - not really all that useful at all.
Snatch, Clean & Jerk - "demonstrating strength, flexibility, balance"?

I'm not trying to say OHS sucks. It's a good cool tool, but it's kind of like a Turkish Get Up in my books - cool and fun to do, very challenging, but training it often and especially heavy is pretty unnecessary.
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Old 07-24-2008, 07:26 AM   #10
David Wood
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Re: Programming question Press, Push Press / Overhead Squat/back squat

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Originally Posted by John Alston View Post
WHat kind of progress have you seen on this routine, David?
Decent. I've been focusing on trying to get my basic strength back up to where it was pre-surgery (a year ago now). About 85-90% of the way there (best DL ever was 415 for a single, best push-press was 205, etc.) Not sure I'll ever get there with the overhead work. DL was about 305-315 for a triple when I started, now 355 or 365 on a good day. Haven't done any single-rep max attempts (except by accident).

The routine I described is only one of several workouts I have used on the current cycle. (I still do met-cons about 2x or 3x / week, which I'm sure slows my progress compared to a pure focus on strength).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonid Soubbotine View Post
David - you won't get strong with it.

As far as CF goes - OHS is a great ool.
As far as strength training - not really all that useful at all.
Snatch, Clean & Jerk - "demonstrating strength, flexibility, balance"?

I'm not trying to say OHS sucks. It's a good cool tool, but it's kind of like a Turkish Get Up in my books - cool and fun to do, very challenging, but training it often and especially heavy is pretty unnecessary.
Agreed that I can't (and probably won't ever) be able to do an OHS with enough weight to actually improve my Back Squat (or other basic strength).

Maybe it's just personal . . . I really "like" the challenge (which I experience more as a torso strength / balance issue than anything else) of the OHS, and I really feel more "connected" (as Dan John said of it) when I'm training it.

The comparison to the TGU is spot on . . . if I liked them, I'd probably do a lot more of them . . . but they'd still be supplemental, not essential.
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