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Old 09-24-2012, 12:08 PM   #1
David Sigmon
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My ramblings - caloric intake

I'm going to make list a few thoughts and let you guys run with it. As I've mentioned before, my background is in bodybuilding/weight lifting and I've dieted my fat *** up and down a lot and have used a lot of top level trainers (literally IFBB professional trainers) in the past and have a lot of working knowledge with how the body responds to a variety of different dieting methods.

I had a 42" waist entering high school at 5'10" and was a complete fat ***. I always wore "husky" sized clothing etc. I had no muscle and no strength as I quickly found out when I began playing football in high school. I finally had enough of being picked on and dieted down from around 225lbs to 175lbs over the course of a long summer. I had NO idea what I was doing but I ate very little food..combine that with 2 a day football practices and long runs in trash bags (yes, I know, stupid) then you can see why I lost the weight.

In college I got introduced to a guy who competed in bodybuilding and he started to help me out. I was about 185lbs then and pretty tiny at about 6'1". Over the next 2-3 years I worked my way up to 210lbs. I did what he asked regarding diet and nutrition and got a little soft but I was stronger than I had ever been.

After college I finally became motivated enough to work with a trainer and become religious about my diet and nutrition. Every meal was weighed, every workout recorded. I competed in a contest where I dieted from 235lbs and weighed in around 200lbs on stage. After that I rebounded to around 250lbs and still had abs and it was the largest I had ever been. To get to 250lbs I was eating around 4500-5k calories PER DAY of clean food...no cheat meals. If I was only able to eat around 4k per day, I did not gain any size at all.

OK, so lets fast forward to today. I've moved away from bodybuilding as I could no longer progress without affecting my health. At 240+ pounds I developed sleep apnea and felt awful all the time. I found crossfit and realized how out of shape I truly was (even with looking athletic) and I changed my whole mentality.

About 3 months ago I was 235lbs and was eating around 2500-3k calories per day and not really fluctuating. I was still weight lifting 3 times per week (bodybuilding style, 4-5 excercises per body part, 4-5 sets per exercise and 10-15 rep range) alone with crossfitting 4-5 times per week. I'd eat pretty much zone type diet but 2-3 times per week have Wendy's and once per week a large breakfast.

After the open I realized I needed to drop some size so I can be better at gymnastic movements. Increase my pullups, muscle ups, hspu's etc. So starting at 235lbs my diet began with a total caloric intake of 2300 calories. My macro break down was 5 meals of 50/15/15 with one meal (pre bed) of 30/0/20. This was given to me by my trainer and IFBB professional.

The first week I dropped down to around 230lbs, mostly due to the loss of glycogen stores. After two weeks I platued and we removed the carbohydrates from meals 2 and 4. Another week passed and I was 227lbs. We stuck with the same diet for the following week and I was still around 227 so we took the remaining carbs out and for the next TWO weeks I was eating 50/0/15 with NO cheat meals or refeeds to see how my body responded. I was down to 223lbs at that point and we had a refeed meal that weekend.

At this point all of my workouts were still great. I felt better due to the lack of inflammation brought on by gluten and carbs. My strength was still going up (hit a C&J pr of 295lbs during that time) and life was great.

I continued with this diet until this week when I plateud again. We are now going with 50/0/10 diet for 5 meals then the 30/0/22 for my last meal. So my calories are 1750 (not including incidentals) and I still feel great. My strength is not dropping, my weight is slowly coming down, my WODs are still at 100% intensity and I still weigh over 220lbs and getting in about 8 training sessions per week. If I progress in my diet I get one refeed meal pre-bed which I eat around 300 carbohydrates with a cheat meal of something like a hamburger and fries.

SO please...when you guys are telling FEMALES who are 130-140lbs or males that are a 175lbs etc, that they arent eating enough at 1500 to 3k calories per day respectively...some of that is just crazy. You may disagree but I've also seen this with MANY female clients. Females are very different than males in regards to diet due to hormones etc and sometimes we do have to dip down the calories more than what you "guru's" think is necessary. I mean if I can't lose weight at 222lbs working out at 8 times per week at slightly less than 2k calories...how do you expect a female or male to lose weight who is less muscled and eating 3k calories per day? I realize there are FAR more variables invovled such as endo/ecto, metabolisms, hormones, etc....but I can promise in many situations all of the suggested calories are rediculous.

Blast away

Last edited by David Sigmon : 09-24-2012 at 12:12 PM.
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Old 09-24-2012, 12:38 PM   #2
Paulo Santos
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Re: My ramblings - caloric intake

I completely agree.
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Old 09-24-2012, 12:52 PM   #3
Bill M. Hesse
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Re: My ramblings - caloric intake

This should be a sticky
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Old 09-24-2012, 12:55 PM   #4
Michael Dries
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Re: My ramblings - caloric intake

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Originally Posted by David Sigmon View Post
SO please...when you guys are telling FEMALES who are 130-140lbs or males that are a 175lbs etc, that they arent eating enough at 1500 to 3k calories per day respectively...some of that is just crazy. You may disagree but I've also seen this with MANY female clients. Females are very different than males in regards to diet due to hormones etc and sometimes we do have to dip down the calories more than what you "guru's" think is necessary. I mean if I can't lose weight at 222lbs working out at 8 times per week at slightly less than 2k calories...how do you expect a female or male to lose weight who is less muscled and eating 3k calories per day? I realize there are FAR more variables invovled such as endo/ecto, metabolisms, hormones, etc....but I can promise in many situations all of the suggested calories are rediculous.

Blast away

^ Agreed. I also want to point out that online calorie calculator are hit or miss at best. According to your stats 6'1'', 222 and highly active, you should be consuming ~2400 to maintain as a sedentary person. That's obviously not the case here.

People need to learn what their body responds to on their own. Zone, paleo, high carb, low carb, etc are a good place to START but each and every person needs to spend time (at least 4 weeks) adhering to a particular diet to see what it does to their body. Just like training programs. Diet hopping is probably worse than program hopping.
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Old 09-24-2012, 02:16 PM   #5
Chris Mason
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Re: My ramblings - caloric intake

If you can't lose weight at 222 lbs working out 8X per week and eating 2k cals or less then something is seriously wrong.

125 lbs Ethiopian runners average about 2,700 cals per day. Yes, it can be argued they burn a lot of cals, but still, you might want to see a doc about some underlying pathology going on.
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Old 09-24-2012, 02:21 PM   #6
David Sigmon
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Re: My ramblings - caloric intake

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Originally Posted by Chris Mason View Post
If you can't lose weight at 222 lbs working out 8X per week and eating 2k cals or less then something is seriously wrong.

125 lbs Ethiopian runners average about 2,700 cals per day. Yes, it can be argued they burn a lot of cals, but still, you might want to see a doc about some underlying pathology going on.
I get my bloodwork (full endo panel) done every six months and I did so prior to the beginning of my diet. I'm perfectly healthy, test levels, estradiol levels, thyroid, etc are all in the normal range.

Have you ever been sub 5% bf Chris (and no, im not saying im 5%...i'm no where close yet)? I mean do you realize what it takes to get that low? You have to drop your calories continuously over an extended period of time. And again, I'll listen to my trainer who has worked with me for 5+ years now and has helped a LOT of competitors reach a national level and WIN their repective shows and classes over a strong man competitor (no offense).

Like I said, my beginning diet was around 2500 cals and have been slowly reduced to continue progress. You can't keep the same caloric intake and think you can continue leaning out. Again, these EXCLUDE incidental calories. This also excludes my cheat meal which adds another large chunk of calories.

And I've attached a current pic...do I look unhealthy to you?

Thanks for your input though
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Old 09-24-2012, 02:29 PM   #7
Chris Mason
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Re: My ramblings - caloric intake

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Originally Posted by David Sigmon View Post
I get my bloodwork (full endo panel) done every six months and I did so prior to the beginning of my diet. I'm perfectly healthy, test levels, estradiol levels, thyroid, etc are all in the normal range.

Have you ever been sub 5% bf Chris?

Like I said, my beginning diet was around 2500 cals and have been slowly reduced to continue progress. You can't keep the same caloric intake and think you can continue leaning out. Again, these EXCLUDE incidental calories. This also excludes my cheat meal which adds another large chunk of calories.

Thanks for your input though
Well, I don't trust BF calculations from any source, but I have competed in bodybuilding and did ok, so I have been pretty lean . When I did so, I would start my diets in the 4,500 - 5k range at a body weight of around 240 lbs and reduce from there. I could lose body fat and weight very quickly.

I would say you have a pretty darn slow metabolism for whatever reason. So slow as to be quite unusual. And you are right, there are others like you. The question becomes what can they do to increase their metabolisms a bit?

If you have to live on less then 2k cals to stay lean at well over 200 lbs then I think that is a tough position to be in.

Just my 2 cents.

And no, I am not knocking you. You look great in your avatar picture.
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Old 09-24-2012, 02:37 PM   #8
David Sigmon
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Re: My ramblings - caloric intake

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Originally Posted by Chris Mason View Post
Well, I don't trust BF calculations from any source, but I have competed in bodybuilding and did ok, so I have been pretty lean . When I did so, I would start my diets in the 4,500 - 5k range at a body weight of around 240 lbs and reduce from there. I could lose body fat and weight very quickly.

I would say you have a pretty darn slow metabolism for whatever reason. So slow as to be quite unusual. And you are right, there are others like you. The question becomes what can they do to increase their metabolisms a bit?

If you have to live on less then 2k cals to stay lean at well over 200 lbs then I think that is a tough position to be in.

Just my 2 cents.

And no, I am not knocking you. You look great in your avatar picture.
Thanks Chris, I do appreciate it. It's cool to know you've been through the bodybuilding part as well. I'm certianly one who can put on fat fairly easily but fortunately I can put on muscle easily as well.

2K calories isn't too bad. I'm eating 5 meals with 7 oz's of 99% FF turkey or chicken breast along with something such at 2tbs of almond butter or other healthy fat source. I get hungry but not starving yet thankfully.

Oh, and this is from my first show...I over dieted like crazy but I had to in order to get truly lean.
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Old 09-24-2012, 02:43 PM   #9
Richard Deyan
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Re: My ramblings - caloric intake

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Originally Posted by David Sigmon View Post
I'm going to make list a few thoughts and let you guys run with it. As I've mentioned before, my background is in bodybuilding/weight lifting and I've dieted my fat *** up and down a lot and have used a lot of top level trainers (literally IFBB professional trainers) in the past and have a lot of working knowledge with how the body responds to a variety of different dieting methods.

I had a 42" waist entering high school at 5'10" and was a complete fat ***. I always wore "husky" sized clothing etc. I had no muscle and no strength as I quickly found out when I began playing football in high school. I finally had enough of being picked on and dieted down from around 225lbs to 175lbs over the course of a long summer. I had NO idea what I was doing but I ate very little food..combine that with 2 a day football practices and long runs in trash bags (yes, I know, stupid) then you can see why I lost the weight.

In college I got introduced to a guy who competed in bodybuilding and he started to help me out. I was about 185lbs then and pretty tiny at about 6'1". Over the next 2-3 years I worked my way up to 210lbs. I did what he asked regarding diet and nutrition and got a little soft but I was stronger than I had ever been.

After college I finally became motivated enough to work with a trainer and become religious about my diet and nutrition. Every meal was weighed, every workout recorded. I competed in a contest where I dieted from 235lbs and weighed in around 200lbs on stage. After that I rebounded to around 250lbs and still had abs and it was the largest I had ever been. To get to 250lbs I was eating around 4500-5k calories PER DAY of clean food...no cheat meals. If I was only able to eat around 4k per day, I did not gain any size at all.

OK, so lets fast forward to today. I've moved away from bodybuilding as I could no longer progress without affecting my health. At 240+ pounds I developed sleep apnea and felt awful all the time. I found crossfit and realized how out of shape I truly was (even with looking athletic) and I changed my whole mentality.

About 3 months ago I was 235lbs and was eating around 2500-3k calories per day and not really fluctuating. I was still weight lifting 3 times per week (bodybuilding style, 4-5 excercises per body part, 4-5 sets per exercise and 10-15 rep range) alone with crossfitting 4-5 times per week. I'd eat pretty much zone type diet but 2-3 times per week have Wendy's and once per week a large breakfast.

After the open I realized I needed to drop some size so I can be better at gymnastic movements. Increase my pullups, muscle ups, hspu's etc. So starting at 235lbs my diet began with a total caloric intake of 2300 calories. My macro break down was 5 meals of 50/15/15 with one meal (pre bed) of 30/0/20. This was given to me by my trainer and IFBB professional.

The first week I dropped down to around 230lbs, mostly due to the loss of glycogen stores. After two weeks I platued and we removed the carbohydrates from meals 2 and 4. Another week passed and I was 227lbs. We stuck with the same diet for the following week and I was still around 227 so we took the remaining carbs out and for the next TWO weeks I was eating 50/0/15 with NO cheat meals or refeeds to see how my body responded. I was down to 223lbs at that point and we had a refeed meal that weekend.

At this point all of my workouts were still great. I felt better due to the lack of inflammation brought on by gluten and carbs. My strength was still going up (hit a C&J pr of 295lbs during that time) and life was great.

I continued with this diet until this week when I plateud again. We are now going with 50/0/10 diet for 5 meals then the 30/0/22 for my last meal. So my calories are 1750 (not including incidentals) and I still feel great. My strength is not dropping, my weight is slowly coming down, my WODs are still at 100% intensity and I still weigh over 220lbs and getting in about 8 training sessions per week. If I progress in my diet I get one refeed meal pre-bed which I eat around 300 carbohydrates with a cheat meal of something like a hamburger and fries.

SO please...when you guys are telling FEMALES who are 130-140lbs or males that are a 175lbs etc, that they arent eating enough at 1500 to 3k calories per day respectively...some of that is just crazy. You may disagree but I've also seen this with MANY female clients. Females are very different than males in regards to diet due to hormones etc and sometimes we do have to dip down the calories more than what you "guru's" think is necessary. I mean if I can't lose weight at 222lbs working out at 8 times per week at slightly less than 2k calories...how do you expect a female or male to lose weight who is less muscled and eating 3k calories per day? I realize there are FAR more variables invovled such as endo/ecto, metabolisms, hormones, etc....but I can promise in many situations all of the suggested calories are rediculous.

Blast away
Who is saying that? I often see a lot of people advocating quite the opposite. I see people advocating paleo or zone or a mix of both to people who are training pretty hard and only recommending like 2000-2200 calories a day for guys who are in excess of 180 pounds.

Have you seen the study that was published lately about glucose sensitivity and consuming large amounts of carbs at night time? Looks basically like what you are doing with your refeed meals and its being shown to work rather well for fat loss. I just wish the study also had a group that ate carbohydrates in the morning as well, it was lacking in that aspect.

I am glad there's guys like you and Chris also on this board coming from different backgrounds other than crossfit. I don't necessarily think that your metabolism could be considered heavily endomorph, if anything I'd say you're definitely a mix of meso-endo. I have some buddies with the same situation as you. They really monitor their intake and its around 2000 cals a day, yet they're 215 pounds at 5'9 and only about 14% BF max. All that muscle doesn't hurt to have when it comes to cutting down and dropping fat off in conjunction with keto
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Old 09-24-2012, 02:49 PM   #10
David Sigmon
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Re: My ramblings - caloric intake

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Who is saying that? I often see a lot of people advocating quite the opposite. I see people advocating paleo or zone or a mix of both to people who are training pretty hard and only recommending like 2000-2200 calories a day for guys who are in excess of 180 pounds.

Have you seen the study that was published lately about glucose sensitivity and consuming large amounts of carbs at night time? Looks basically like what you are doing with your refeed meals and its being shown to work rather well for fat loss. I just wish the study also had a group that ate carbohydrates in the morning as well, it was lacking in that aspect.

I am glad there's guys like you and Chris also on this board coming from different backgrounds other than crossfit. I don't necessarily think that your metabolism could be considered heavily endomorph, if anything I'd say you're definitely a mix of meso-endo. I have some buddies with the same situation as you. They really monitor their intake and its around 2000 cals a day, yet they're 215 pounds at 5'9 and only about 14% BF max. All that muscle doesn't hurt to have when it comes to cutting down and dropping fat off in conjunction with keto
Thanks Ricky.

I've seen it quite a bit about females complaining about being unable to lose weight. I can look through the older threads but maybe it doesn't happen as often as I feel it does.

You know, the reason I consume my cheat meal at night is mostly related to the mentality we have during dieting. I've proved this theory over and over haha. If I eat my cheat meal for breakfast, I will continue to cheat the rest of the day...or at least be more prone to eating additional carbs etc. It also ruins the rest of my meals because after the cheat, I'm normally stuffed for 6 hours or so and don't get the remainder of my meals in.

I haven't seen that study though, if you can find it please post it, I'd love to read it.

Thanks!
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