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Old 06-06-2015, 05:28 AM   #151
Steven Wingo
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Re: Is Rich Froning the next Lance Armstrong?

I get the impression some people believe CrossFit methodology precludes tailoring a program to a particular athlete. That is just flat out dead wrong and a total misunderstanding of what CrossFit teaches us.
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Old 06-06-2015, 05:41 AM   #152
Pearse Shields
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Re: Is Rich Froning the next Lance Armstrong?

Steven, you're so deep in the Kool-Aid that we can't even see you any more.
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Old 06-06-2015, 05:51 AM   #153
Pearse Shields
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Re: Is Rich Froning the next Lance Armstrong?

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Originally Posted by Steven Wingo View Post
I get the impression some people believe CrossFit methodology precludes tailoring a program to a particular athlete. That is just flat out dead wrong and a total misunderstanding of what CrossFit teaches us.
"We’ve used our same routines for elderly individuals with heart disease and cage fighters one month out from televised bouts. We scale load and intensity; we don’t change programs."
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Old 06-06-2015, 08:13 AM   #154
Struan Potter
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Re: Is Rich Froning the next Lance Armstrong?

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Originally Posted by Zac Metz View Post
Aww I was going to use the book "Infinite Intensity" to say the same thing. I dont know the EXACT dates of Crossfit and its "invention", but that book was written in 2005 and I think that probably pre-dates Crossfit. And spoiler alert, it has programming in which the athlete does a group of exercises, for time, and then tries to improve later to improve conditioning. Sound like something we've heard of?
First CrossFit main site workout was posted on 10/02/2001, the current main site was launched in May 2003.

I could probably show Wingo an elite athletes S&C programme (strength and power sessions, phyometrics and conditioning sessions) and he would call it CrossFit because the definition of CrossFit is really vague and can encompass pretty much anything.
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Old 06-06-2015, 09:00 AM   #155
Steven Wingo
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Re: Is Rich Froning the next Lance Armstrong?

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Originally Posted by Pearse Shields View Post
"We’ve used our same routines for elderly individuals with heart disease and cage fighters one month out from televised bouts. We scale load and intensity; we don’t change programs."
You selectively pick a quote made in a certain context and conveniently leave out others which are on point, such as the clear direction and admission that CrossFit is not intended to replace sport specific training.

I don't drink Kool-Aid by the way. It is just that I don't feel the need to look for ways to detract from or diminish CrossFit's incredible contribution to the world of health and fitness every time someone else makes positive comments about it. It seems some on here on hell bent on efforts to diminish what CrossFit has to offer every chance they get.

Back to the subject of the thread--steroids. I argued that CrossFit may be allowing athletes to see clean, legitimate gains which others question as PED induced because a primary objective and goal of the CrossFit method of training is to in fact elicit a natural neuroendocrine response.

Do you disagree with that? Do you contend that such training for an endurance athlete is not a good thing to help them make overall gains and recover better from both their GPP training and their sport specific training? Michael Phelps was brought up as someone who allegedly does only sport specific training. Well in 2 minutes of searching I debunked that notion and found a video with his trainer talking and touting methods strikingly similar to those touted by CrossFit.
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Old 06-06-2015, 11:35 AM   #156
Richard Colon
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Re: Is Rich Froning the next Lance Armstrong?

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Originally Posted by Steven Wingo View Post
The question then becomes--what type of core strength and conditioning program/cross training program is best?

I say it is now absolutely clear the best program is the one which elicits a natural neuroendocrine response through constantly variable functional movements performed at high intensity.
The very fact of you thinking and saying this tells me, in my experience (which is quite a bit, in and out of the world of training, fitness and Crossfit) that you are spouting $hit at this point. Just simply going to dismiss all you say, until I feel compelled to challenge what you say again, because now its becoming fun.

There is no such thing as best in the world of fitness, strength, conditioning, nutrition, etc. To think so, is to be so blinded by what you are doing..so deep in the $hit as they say, that you are viewing the rest of the world through brown clouded lenses.

I've always remembered a very important philosophy told to me by an extremely successful, influential trainer/coach/mentor/fitness guy. He said, and I'm not directly quoting, that the moment you stop searching, the moment you stop thinking, looking around and embracing the possibility that there may be something better out there, is the moment you stop questioning. When you stop questioning the efficiency of something and stop trying to learn, then you stop growing as an athlete and/or as a coach and trainer. Even if you don't ever find that something "better", always be open to looking and trying for yourself. The enemy of all of this is to think that what you are currently doing is THE BEST. Once you commit to that, you won't find much reason to explore, because after all, you have the best already.

Look back to the beasts/greats of the old days. Franco Columbu, Bruce Lee, Arnold, Bill Kaz, Ed Coan, Tom Platz, Aleksandr Karelin, Jesse Owens, Jordan, Magic, Ali, Pele, Ruth, Cobb, Ted Williams, Jim Brown, Bo Jackson, Collegiate version of Herschel Walker, Barry Sanders, Spitz, Walter Payton, Gretzky, Karch Kiraly, Carl Lewis, Lawrence Taylor, Comaneci, Dan Gable..I could use my google fu for another 30 minutes and find 5x more. The point is, all of these guys excelled and demonstrated some and/or all components of greatness, athleticism, intensity, strength, conditioning, fitness, health and simply "something we could all look up to for the epitome of amazing" in this very diverse world of strength, conditioning, fitness and all things in between.

ALL of them did this and demonstrated this WELL before there were any whispers of Crossfit. Many of them well before anything called the internet. If Crossfit is the absolute best, the end of it all as you inaccurately presume, then how could they have done what they did? If the best was not around yet, then what they did was just a bit less than it could have been. To think that, for even a moment, that if they had Crossfit, they might have been even better is to disrespect their accomplishments and what they did and how they trained, lived, performed and competed. Without them, it is quite possible that Glassman never had the desire, knowledge and inspiration to create your beloved Crossfit.

Believe what you want, and support Crossfit in any you want and can, but don't be dismissive or disrespectful about it or those that have done a world's worth of excellence in fitness WITHOUT it. Or those that continue to believe that can achieve that greatness just as successfully and efficiently without Crossfit. Crossfit is a tool. It is a way. A good way and a great way but still, a way. There are many ways.
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Old 06-06-2015, 11:47 AM   #157
Steven Wingo
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Re: Is Rich Froning the next Lance Armstrong?

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Originally Posted by Struan Potter View Post
First CrossFit main site workout was posted on 10/02/2001, the current main site was launched in May 2003.

I could probably show Wingo an elite athletes S&C programme (strength and power sessions, phyometrics and conditioning sessions) and he would call it CrossFit because the definition of CrossFit is really vague and can encompass pretty much anything.
You are mostly right. I would bet most elite athletes' S&C programs fall within the general parameters of what constitutes CrossFit. The definition of CrossFit is not vague, however.

CrossFit is a core strength and conditioning program, both literally and figuratively. That isn't vague. But of course it is not a complete description, just a simple starting point definition.

CrossFit's prescription, its methodology, is to use constantly variable functional movements performed at high intensity for core strength and conditioning. That isn't vague either, although it is not complete--but it isn't intended to be complete. Even the Level 1 seminar materials alone are about 120 pages long. And that is just the mere starting point in a "CrossFit Coaches'" education.

So where do you find a complete description of CrossFit? You look at the thousands of open source videos and articles available through the CrossFit Journal, YouTube, the various seminar materials, and so on. Contributions come from many sources, some from directly within the CrossFit community some from outside it. Not all contributors are in agreement, which is probably a good thing because once you lose debate and experimentation and attempts to advance you are in trouble. That is one of the benefits of the free, open source nature CrossFit has adopted with its educational materials.

CrossFit doesn't have a monopoly on everything good to say. Nobody has suggested that. It doesn't own any of the different disciplines it advocates and didn't create them--gymnastics movements, olympic lifting movements, monostructural cardio movements, KB movements, sled work, and so on. It is not the final authority on everything in the fitness world and in fact looks to the experts in those fields for advancement. It has adopted and promoted and called attention to what is good out there and really works and continues to do so. Great trainers have benefitted tremendously from the CrossFit community, its open source materials, and what is has to offer---why is anyone even here on this forum if they don't believe that?

You don't have to be in an licensed affiliate somewhere to be following the "CrossFit formula." You may be in a globo gym, your garage, behind enemy lines in a military compound, in a top notch collegiate athletic program, or being trained as a professional athlete by some of the best trainers in the world. Those trainers may not even have any CrossFit specific training and learned their trade completely from other sources (although lack of exposure to CrossFit and what it has to offer in this day and age would seem highly unlikely for any quality trainer).

Just because you are following that formula and are, in my eyes, "doing CrossFit" does not mean CrossFit or Greg Glassman are claiming responsibility or credit. You just agree with him and with CrossFit methodology. You may have even preceded him. Well if so good for you. Don't be offended.
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Old 06-06-2015, 01:53 PM   #158
Luke Sirakos
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Re: Is Rich Froning the next Lance Armstrong?

Take an athlete like Alex Viada. Guy is a complete freak of nature and an incredible athlete. If he implemented CrossFit training into his routines it would only make him worse. Why? The type of activity that he does requires him to be incredible judicial with his training and recovery. He cannot go out there and do something that does not specifically address his training goals in an optimal fashion. Might some of the things he does look like CossFit? Well yeah, he does strength training and conditioning for both short and long distances so clearly there will be some overlap. That in no way, shape, or form means he is doing CrossFit. At all.

In fact, he was training this way before CrossFit and if CrossFit never came around he would still probably be as beastly as he is now because he is not just genetically gifted but he has an incredible work ethic, is a very intelligent person and has an enormous amount of training and nutrition knowledge.

If you think that he is doing CrossFit because there is some overlap then I could just as easily say that every person doing CrossFit is doing his style of training instead. I know you are a lawyer and so you love to argue but this is getting ridiculous.

This is not any knock on CrossFit. CrossFit does great things for a lot of people but it is not the solution to everything in the athletic world. It also does not have a monopoly on cross training. Cross training was around before CrossFit and will be around after CrossFit.
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Old 06-06-2015, 02:06 PM   #159
Andrew Bell
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Re: Is Rich Froning the next Lance Armstrong?

It may not be reddit, but I feel like this applies here.
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Old 06-07-2015, 12:06 PM   #160
John Drohan
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Re: Is Rich Froning the next Lance Armstrong?

From the FAQ at crossfit.com:

If you train the WODs hard, and eat right and get lots of sleep, you will definitely gain lean mass, lose fat, and yes, you can build muscle mass with the crossfit protocol. More specifically, according to Coach,
Here is a hierarchy of training for mass from greater to lesser efficacy:
1. Bodybuilding on steroids
2. CrossFitting on steroids
3. CrossFitting without steroids
4. Bodybuilding without steroids
The bodybuilding model is designed around, requires, steroids for significant hypertrophy.
The neuroendocrine response of bodybuilding protocols is so blunted that without "exogenous hormonal therapy" little happens.
The CrossFit protocol is designed to elicit a substantial neuroendocrine whollop and hence packs an anabolic punch that puts on impressive amounts of muscle though that is not our concern. Strength is.
Natural bodybuilders (the natural ones that are not on steroids) never approach the mass that our ahtletes do. They don't come close.
Those athletes who train for function end up with better form than those who value form over function. This is one of the beautiful ironies of training.


Are there any research studies to back this claim up? It seems interesting to me, because I've done #3 and #4 and while I'm convinced that Crossfit is a far more well-rounded approach to training, I'm not convinced it's better for hypertrophy. This is just based on comparing clientele between my Crossfit gym and globo counterparts. I'm intrigued by this mystical neuroendocrine response. There must be blood sample data somewhere to support this claim.
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