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Old 10-06-2009, 11:46 PM   #21
Graeme Howland
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Re: Huge Decline in Quality

I think he has some very valid points, but he is coming from a specific perspective. From what I gather, he is coaching motivated athletes trying to achieve their genetic potential. There are people who do CF for general fitness and just to work up a sweat, they have no interest in a bodyweight snatch, <60sec 400M time etc. They can be in better physical shape than 90% of the population by doing random metcons and be happy about it, while an elite athlete might need something else. Two different markets, two different gyms? I agree about the hardcore attitude/we're better than you thing though, personally it's a big turn off for me, I hated the banner at the games.
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Old 10-07-2009, 02:52 AM   #22
Wayne Riddle
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Re: Huge Decline in Quality

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Originally Posted by John C. Brown View Post
Do we need to consult SMEs on the Games programming? I think that that is ridiculous.
Should Crossfit get rid of SME's if they shouldn't be consulted? Why have SME's?
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Old 10-07-2009, 03:05 AM   #23
David Meverden
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Re: Huge Decline in Quality

I just have mixed feelings about this whole thing.

On the one hand I want CrossFit to be associated with quality, naturally.

On the other hand this is a fitness movement build on the idea of: You want to be fit? Grab a stopwatch, a bar, and start doing the movements and workouts in your garage. It's a movement where Coach has said that doing these movements with poor or mediocre form is better than not doing them at all. Now there is a backlash saying everyone must be introduced to this stuff in a strict, organized, affiliate with a slow ramp up monitored by a veteran trainer?

That just seems like a disconnect to me.
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Old 10-07-2009, 03:09 AM   #24
Doug Blankenship
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Re: Huge Decline in Quality

I don't disagree with him on 90% of it, his points are valid.
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Old 10-07-2009, 04:55 AM   #25
John C. Brown
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Re: Huge Decline in Quality

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Originally Posted by Wayne Riddle View Post
Should Crossfit get rid of SME's if they shouldn't be consulted? Why have SME's?
????
I said that they weren't necessary to plan an event that wasn't their subject matter, i.e. The "CrossFit" Games.

Now, words are tricky I know... Need for instance would imply an incapability to do without... What I am saying is that it wasn't necessary. How many of us know a dead when we see one? I would say most. How about "ground to overhead in one movement" which was the standard for the snatch workout on the second day (by the way, Coach B was there, every step of the way). Maybe we should have had Lisa Lugo and her affiliate crew program the Affiliate cup wods... after all, no one knows affiliates better and she herself owns one.

Tricky words...
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Old 10-07-2009, 07:29 AM   #26
John C. Brown
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Re: Huge Decline in Quality

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Originally Posted by Wayne Riddle View Post
Should Crossfit get rid of SME's if they shouldn't be consulted? Why have SME's?
No, they most certainly shouldn't. I am close friends with several of the SME's. I look up to them as mentors both in business and in training. I call them "Coach" more often than not. These folks bring CrossFit and CrossFitters up, make them better at all of the various pieces and parts of CF, but it is still CF, to which the expertise lies firmly on the shoulders of those that plan the Games. Going from not consulting them to getting rid of them is a GINORMOUS leap! Do "The World's Strongest Man" competitions consult with Rip? I doubt it. Are they dead lifting things in the competition? I would say so, but their expertise in the events is what gives them the right to program the events. I am sure that there are several other examples in the sporting world, this one seemed to be the most relevant one that I could find at 8 am.

The SMEs jobs, as I am to understand them, are to make CrossFitters better at (primarily) coaching those things that they specialize in. I think that they accomplish that job better than just about anyone in the world... Including Rip, we just did the Total at our gym today and have been programing in (relatively) more strength components in in general. Not however at the cost of a compromise across the 10 general skills as a whole. Do we need to be stronger as a community? I would argue that we don't; anymore than we need to be more flexible or have greater Cardio-respiratory endurance. We recognize the need for a broader and more generalized fitness. The SMEs facilitate us in meeting those requirements... as well, I might add as making the affiliate owners and trainers better at what they do.
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Old 10-07-2009, 07:32 AM   #27
Louis H. Poulin II
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Re: Huge Decline in Quality

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Originally Posted by John C. Brown View Post
"Huge Decline in Quality"

This is one of those sweeping generalizations that, for all intents and purposes give me a case of the runs.

Are the points in the article valid? Some, yes, some no. Do we need to consult SMEs on the Games programming? I think that that is ridiculous. This past year's games saw some of the most amazing feats of physical and mental strength and did well to accomplish the two goals that it set to accomplish: to establish the fittest man and woman on Earth for the next year, and to do so in a way that was unknown and unknowable. In my opinion CF doesn't need a lot of help there.

Are there gyms that need to be better at what they do? Absolutely! But instead of merely complaining, why not do something about it. Get your local gyms together and talk about training and how to become better. Offer to trade out weeks or months of programming for each other's gyms. If strength is what you think is the biggest issue, then start holding olympic and powerlifting meets and invite all of the local affiliates. If bad programming is the issue than get people together and offer ideas. One of the biggest problem with the chipper workouts that are constantly programmed at some gyms, is that the gym owner/ lead trainer doesn't have enough equipment to do workouts for everyone, so they do a start and finish. If no one gives them ideas on how to work around these issues, like say breaking into groups, doing team wods or starting in offset positions, than chippers is what they get... If they don't have enough bumpers (and really, how can you ever have enough) than they are afraid of doing strength days, because the clientele complain about waiting around or some such BS. Well, tell your clients that if they want more bars and bumpers, donate some cash. Mike Burgener passes the hat at "Mike's," if it isn't too good for him, why is it too good for you? Our building is huge and costs a boatload to heat in the winter (Colorado= cold), I told my folks that if they wanted the heat on to bring in more people.

I have not met the folks from Greyskull, although I have heard from more than a few people that they are good people and that their biggest priority is their clients. That is awesome, I am sad to see them go. The bottom line is that if they were really disappointed with things, they would have taken steps to change them rather than walk away. As far as the bad CF gyms, they will likely fail on many levels, this is the business model that Coach Glassman wants... I think. I once had Jeff Martin talk to me about my seat on the bus, well it seems to me that Greg and a few others are firmly in the driver's seat. If I want to change the direction, I better have a really good reason why, and the proof to support my argument, otherwise I would plan on packing my bags as well. Not because I disagree (the aforementioned business plan allows for that after all), but because I decided that I didn't want to play the role that was meant for me and I was asked to step off the bus.

If you want to change things, do it, don't cry about how bad the world is.
You speak of sweeping generalizations, then make a statement saying the CrossFit games establish the fittest man and woman on the planet. I dare say that there are several thousand professional, amateur, and olympic athletes that would disagree with that statement. The CrossFit games establish the male and female best adapted to the CrossFit games. Switch one or two events and the winners would've likely changed. Also, since the SME's were not consulted you don't have all the experts getting together to make the event more balanced or well-rounded. Furthermore, I thought CrossFit was supposed to bean exercise plan, not a business model?
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Old 10-07-2009, 08:01 AM   #28
John C. Brown
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Re: Huge Decline in Quality

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Originally Posted by Louis H. Poulin II View Post
You speak of sweeping generalizations, then make a statement saying the CrossFit games establish the fittest man and woman on the planet. I dare say that there are several thousand professional, amateur, and olympic athletes that would disagree with that statement. The CrossFit games establish the male and female best adapted to the CrossFit games. Switch one or two events and the winners would've likely changed. Also, since the SME's were not consulted you don't have all the experts getting together to make the event more balanced or well-rounded. Furthermore, I thought CrossFit was supposed to bean exercise plan, not a business model?

CrossFit is a fitness program... congratulations Captain Obvious. CrossFit Inc. is a business, it requires a business model. The business belongs to Greg and Lauren Glassman, they have decided to share it with folks like myself who choose to make a living training people. It is up to them how they choose to run their business, it is up to me whether I stay with it or not. Currently, I would have a very empty future without CrossFit and what it has done for me and my clientele.

As to the Games, they are open invitation, if Olympic and Amateur athletes want to compete, they can. However, I would argue that due to the specialization required by their sport that they may not do as well as you think. The best Olympic weightlifter in the U.S. probably wouldn't have qualified, neither would have the best long distance runner/ swimmer. Of course, this is all speculation, because they don't come out, they have their sport to focus on.

To your argument about the fittest man and woman on the planet... go back and read again mousekateer, I finished by saying "for this year." The very nature of the Games requires that people be adapted to wide ranging stimuli or: "Broad time and modal domains." Whomever can accomplish the most work over a given amount of time is, by CrossFit's standard, the fittest. That is what was tested. Switch one or two of the events and the winner would have changed, the stats have been done: Take away sledge/ row: no contest, Mikko destroys the field. Take away the run: no contest, Khalipa destroys the field... Take away the dead lift... Maybe Speal makes the second day... and then destroys the field. They are all BS, the events were what they were and none of the athletes could have trained specifically for those events, that is what makes CrossFit unique. As far as well rounded goes, I don't know if it could have been more well rounded. Seems to have covered most of the time and modal domains that I can think of... What do you have? Because again, the thesis in my OP was that there was a lot of complaining and not a whole lot of suggestions on making things better.
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Old 10-07-2009, 08:13 AM   #29
Wayne Riddle
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Re: Huge Decline in Quality

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Originally Posted by John C. Brown View Post
No, they most certainly shouldn't. I am close friends with several of the SME's. I look up to them as mentors both in business and in training. I call them "Coach" more often than not. These folks bring CrossFit and CrossFitters up, make them better at all of the various pieces and parts of CF, but it is still CF, to which the expertise lies firmly on the shoulders of those that plan the Games. Going from not consulting them to getting rid of them is a GINORMOUS leap!
I would agree. Being one that is on the outside as to how the Crossfit organization runs, I have no clue to the roles of the SME's are within Crossfit. I know what my role is when I am consulted as an SME where I work but I can't say how that applies to the SME's for Crossfit.
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Old 10-07-2009, 08:17 AM   #30
Louis H. Poulin II
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Re: Huge Decline in Quality

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CrossFit is a fitness program... congratulations Captain Obvious. CrossFit Inc. is a business, it requires a business model. The business belongs to Greg and Lauren Glassman, they have decided to share it with folks like myself who choose to make a living training people. It is up to them how they choose to run their business, it is up to me whether I stay with it or not. Currently, I would have a very empty future without CrossFit and what it has done for me and my clientele.

As to the Games, they are open invitation, if Olympic and Amateur athletes want to compete, they can. However, I would argue that due to the specialization required by their sport that they may not do as well as you think. The best Olympic weightlifter in the U.S. probably wouldn't have qualified, neither would have the best long distance runner/ swimmer. Of course, this is all speculation, because they don't come out, they have their sport to focus on.

To your argument about the fittest man and woman on the planet... go back and read again mousekateer, I finished by saying "for this year." The very nature of the Games requires that people be adapted to wide ranging stimuli or: "Broad time and modal domains." Whomever can accomplish the most work over a given amount of time is, by CrossFit's standard, the fittest. That is what was tested. Switch one or two of the events and the winner would have changed, the stats have been done: Take away sledge/ row: no contest, Mikko destroys the field. Take away the run: no contest, Khalipa destroys the field... Take away the dead lift... Maybe Speal makes the second day... and then destroys the field. They are all BS, the events were what they were and none of the athletes could have trained specifically for those events, that is what makes CrossFit unique. As far as well rounded goes, I don't know if it could have been more well rounded. Seems to have covered most of the time and modal domains that I can think of... What do you have? Because again, the thesis in my OP was that there was a lot of complaining and not a whole lot of suggestions on making things better.
Touchy, touchy, eh? No need for personal attacks here, man. Obviously you're the type that implodes when someone pushes back on them just a bit. The fact remains that nothing gives the CrossFit games the right to say that it establishes the fittest man and woman on the planet... for whatever arbitrary period you wish. Especially when you, yourself, admit that changing even one event likely changes the outcome. Who's to say what event makes it in? If you aren't consulting the SME's in depth, you probably aren't getting the best overall gauge of fitness.

Perhaps your original thesis is flawed. For some people, like the Greyskull folks, improving CrossFit is not in their best interest. Why would someone want to try change a system, by your own words, has such a determined bus driver? It's not his business model, he doesn't want to be associated with it due to his personal judgment. He has his own observations, based on his own experiences, and can make a decision without improving CrossFit as he sees fit. The fact here is thus; if you come down on CrossFit, you get the horns. If you come down on Greyskull or Rip, they won't care and allow you to disagree and do your own thing. Without ranting and raving like a lunatic.
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