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Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

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Old 11-11-2009, 07:00 PM   #221
Justin Lascek
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Re: CrossFit Wichita Falls Programming

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Originally Posted by Philip Menagh View Post
Thanks for the thread Justin, I saw your thread over at Strength Mills too. Since they moved much of that material over to the starting strength forums, will you be posting primarily at strength mill, starting strength, or both?



Hey Mike! Good to see you over here. I'm sure you saw/heard Bowen's news?!

One comment on your template is that you might benefit from switching up the order so that you hit your strength workout before your metcon workout so you can hit your str day with more energy/recovery after the rest day.

Are you still making progress?

Question on modification for Boxing

How does this look for a template for building strength while aiming to stay in decent enough shape to do well in amateur boxing matches.

Monday: Squat 3x5, Press 3x5, Pullups
Tuesday: Power Clean 5x3, Hang Power Snatch 5x2, 6-8 min Metcon
Weds: Weightlifting PVC/trainer bar Skills practice, or Shadow Boxing, movement, or offense/defense drills
Thursday: Squat 3x5, Bench 3x5
Friday: Deadlift 1x5, 6-8 mins Metcon
Saturday: Boxing Practice 90 mins-2 hours (shadow, heavy bag, mitt work, sparring)
Sunday: Rest


Long term goal is to be better at doing hard stuff and better at crossfit.
Strength is a limiting factor in some WODs--want more.
Boxing is something I'm doing recreationally now. We're military in Europe and only get to work with our coach on saturdays. I'll have an opportunity for a match once per month. With "mainsite" programming, I found myself at a much higher level of conditioning than anyone I competed against. I have no dreams of golden gloves, but I enjoy the ring. I want to keep my conditioning/skills up well enough to make a good showing in the ring while I get stronger as the primary goal.

25 yrs old. Weigh 160, wouldn't mind gaining a little weight, however with boxing str/weight ratio is very important and I'll need to stay relatively lean.

Most recent 1RMs:
Squat: 255
Deadlift: 375
Clean: 185
Press: 135
Jerk: 201

Can I get stronger with my template?

Will I maintain sufficient enough conditioning to "keep my wind" in the ring?

Anything rec's/tweaks to get better strength results while still keeping my goals in mind?
I think you just need to power clean, Philip. What better way to learn how to explosively extend your hips than in the power clean? It'll be relevant to throwing a punch, and it can be loaded heavier than the snatch -- hence the reason for not including a hang movement or a snatch movement.

What are the weight classes in boxing?

If you are wanting to get better at "doing hard stuff", then strength is a requirement for such activity.

If you want answer these questions, and you'd like a quicker response out of me, e-mail me.
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Old 11-11-2009, 07:17 PM   #222
Justin Lascek
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Re: CrossFit Wichita Falls Programming

There seems to be a lot of unnecessary postings about working on handstands or ring dips -- a lot of unnecessary things that don't really positively affect performance (which is the same thing as strength and conditioning).

If you increase your strength on the basic barbell lifts, your trunk becomes much stronger. When your trunk is much stronger, the demand of the "bodyweight stabilization exercises" are a smaller percentage of your absolute strength. This means that they are easier.

I can kick into a handstand at any time and hold it longer at a bodyweight of 225 (pressing 205 for 5 sets of 5) than I could when I practiced the thing at 195.

Strength makes all this stuff easier, so it is a waste of time to "practice" them in the first place. It won't hurt to do them for a few minutes at the end of a training session, but giving them more attention than that is not going to do much good.
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Old 11-12-2009, 12:10 AM   #223
Jacob Tsypkin
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Re: CrossFit Wichita Falls Programming

Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Lascek View Post
There seems to be a lot of unnecessary postings about working on handstands or ring dips -- a lot of unnecessary things that don't really positively affect performance (which is the same thing as strength and conditioning).

If you increase your strength on the basic barbell lifts, your trunk becomes much stronger. When your trunk is much stronger, the demand of the "bodyweight stabilization exercises" are a smaller percentage of your absolute strength. This means that they are easier.

I can kick into a handstand at any time and hold it longer at a bodyweight of 225 (pressing 205 for 5 sets of 5) than I could when I practiced the thing at 195.

Strength makes all this stuff easier, so it is a waste of time to "practice" them in the first place. It won't hurt to do them for a few minutes at the end of a training session, but giving them more attention than that is not going to do much good.
...

I don't even know what to say to this, Justin. Really, I don't.

I'm going to try to make sure I'm getting this straight.

Are you, or are you not saying, in effect:

Handstands and ring dips don't matter because they're not barbells.
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Old 11-12-2009, 12:35 AM   #224
Alex McRobie
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Re: CrossFit Wichita Falls Programming

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Originally Posted by Jacob Tsypkin View Post
...

I don't even know what to say to this, Justin. Really, I don't.

I'm going to try to make sure I'm getting this straight.

Are you, or are you not saying, in effect:

Handstands and ring dips don't matter because they're not barbells.

Justin is a barbell man, he likes lifting heavy ****. cant blame him really.

i imagine that is pretty much what he is saying, yeah
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Old 11-12-2009, 02:12 AM   #225
Blair Robert Lowe
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Re: CrossFit Wichita Falls Programming

Jacob, I thought about arguing with the point but the truth of the matter is I doubt Justin really cares about gymnastics as he is into lifting and throwing barbells around as his primary focus.

Seeing that he throws and pushes some heavy weight in pursuit of his goals, I didn't think it was worth the bother.

I like what you're doing, Justin and of course there is a part of me that loves 70'sBig. However, I would say that CrossFit is something that is part of your programming, perhaps more of something for your clients than is in your heart of hearts.

And of course, Jacob, you are so emphatic about CrossFit that I'm not sure I can name off 10 more people that I know that are as emphatic about CF. Well, I probably could but you get the point.

I'm pretty sure he is saying they are not CFWF or are merely regulated to the short metcon activities.
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Old 11-12-2009, 10:41 AM   #226
Robert Beckett
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Re: CrossFit Wichita Falls Programming

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Originally Posted by Justin Lascek View Post
There seems to be a lot of unnecessary postings about working on handstands or ring dips -- a lot of unnecessary things that don't really positively affect performance (which is the same thing as strength and conditioning).
These are unnecessary and wasteful because they 1) detract from recovering from more effective strength-building activities (ie barbell lifts) and 2) cannot provide the novice enough metabolic stress to drive metabolic improvements. Correct?

Also: I know your view on metcons that involve things like situps and HSPU (ie isolated strength/technique-dependant moves). Would the CFWF program work using only running and rowing for the metcons?
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Old 11-12-2009, 11:10 AM   #227
Paul Sousa
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Re: CrossFit Wichita Falls Programming

I took it as him saying that if you are too weak to do HSPUs or ring dips then don't try to build the necessary strength with those movements. Build your strength with the basic barbell movements first and once you are sufficiently strong you should be able to do those things much easier when called upon.
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Old 11-12-2009, 05:09 PM   #228
Jakub Kruhlik
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Re: CrossFit Wichita Falls Programming

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Originally Posted by Paul Sousa View Post
I took it as him saying that if you are too weak to do HSPUs or ring dips then don't try to build the necessary strength with those movements. Build your strength with the basic barbell movements first and once you are sufficiently strong you should be able to do those things much easier when called upon.
thats how i interpreted it.
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Old 11-12-2009, 10:02 PM   #229
Blair Robert Lowe
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Re: CrossFit Wichita Falls Programming

Except that HSPU and ring stuff is a skill in itself. HS is somewhat less of a skill compared to when it comes to prolonged holds or moving in or through the HS (pushup, press, hopping). With a ring dip, there is the adaptation to holding the support due to instability.

If I remember the pdf on CFWF, it also included jumping besides running(sprinting). I don't remember rowing in there but sure.

If CFWF was primarily focused at taking a weak or beginning athlete to their next step or building a foundation, there probably shouldn't be any real focus on HSPU and ring dips. I wasn't thinking of it that way till now when I responded last.
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Old 11-13-2009, 08:04 PM   #230
Justin Lascek
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Re: CrossFit Wichita Falls Programming

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Originally Posted by Jacob Tsypkin View Post
...

I don't even know what to say to this, Justin. Really, I don't.

I'm going to try to make sure I'm getting this straight.

Are you, or are you not saying, in effect:

Handstands and ring dips don't matter because they're not barbells.
Some times people get in car wrecks when they drive cars. This is an awful, traumatic thing.

Did I just say that people shouldn't drive cars? No. That'd be quite silly. And this seems to be your logic in your question/statement.

I'm saying that everyone's frazzled focus on getting a lot of practice with these bodyweight-dependent movements is unwarranted. Mainly since the skill of doing these movements is positively augmented by an increase in absolute strength.

My friend Gant likes using static holds on the rings to finish up a workout. In a conversation yesterday he said, "...but, where would I add them in a training program? I don't know, on the way to the water fountain?"

The point is that all of your "practice" and "work" doing these movements is A) not producing an adaptive stress since (hopefully) you have adapted to being able to handle much higher loads than your own bodyweight, B) not a good use of time since your ability to perform said movements will increase with absolute strength and subsequent neuromuscular efficiency, C) the athletic endeavors that would benefit from the movements are not many, and D) the amount of time that should be spent on doing these movements, assuming they are relevant to the training program to begin with, does not exceed five or ten minutes -- so it doesn't really matter anyway.


------

Blair, aside from springing I like to use rowing and resisted running for people in conditioning workouts.
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