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Old 07-25-2009, 04:15 PM   #21
Jacob Tsypkin
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Re: Structured Skill Development

Andrew,

Your post is utter silliness at best, and dangerously misleading to new CrossFitters at worst. It is for their sake that I take the time to deconstruct this.

Before I get into refuting your argument, however, I asked you to name ONE Olympic lifter who has become an elite CrossFitter. ONE. You failed to do so. CrossFit is not one workout, be it "Grace," "Fran," or "King Kong." All you gave me were speculations which you did not back up with any data. That is not an argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew H. Meador View Post
I'll give you an example which I think illustrates my point and has been featured recently on the forums. David Morgan, at 44 years of age, whilst doing "King Kong" throwing around 275 lbs. in the squat clean like it's a joke. As for the range of motion issue - if he did the workout again and did it to scale instead of heavier barbells and poor ROM gymnastics movements, he'd still have an incredible power output. I'm fairly certain that WODs like Grace, Isabel and Randy would be almost comical to watch were a top olympic lifter to do it. Other WODs, too - Tanir Sagir, for example - do you really think that he would have a hard time with Fran?
So, Morgan's performance in a workout that suits his abilities is proof that strength/power development is the crucial ingredient to success at CrossFit? Though he is certainly an impressively strong man, his ability to do well at things he's been doing for years does not prove a thing. There are a total of 6 muscle-ups and 12 handstand pushups in King Kong. They are not in any way the limiting factor in that work out. And your statement regarding Taner Sagir is, again, devoid of data. Yes, I think he'd have a much harder time with "Fran" than you expect, because he DOES NOT TRAIN IN THE GLYCOLYTIC PATHWAY.

Furthermore, all the workouts you list are of extremely short duration. What about "Helen?" What about "Badger?" What about a 5k run? Lastly, Casey Burgener did "Grace" in 2:12, AFTER several months of pure CrossFit. 2:12 is a good time, but it is NOT elite. Casey's "Fran," by the way, is 5:31.

Quote:
Another similar example of barbell strength applying spectacularly to CF is Konstantin Konstantinov, a very successful powerlifter, doing 55 kipping pull-ups without coming off of the bar. At 270 lbs. I'll dig up the video if it's needed. That's more than most CF Games competitors, and he deadlifts over 900 lbs. raw. Just like Everett, he can do a ton of pull-ups because he spends a lot of time yanking heavy bars off of the ground.
Again with the short time domain. Konstantinov's feat is impressive, but how would he have fared in the 7.1k run, the couplet, the triplet, or the chipper at the CF Games? More importantly, if you think he doesn't do pullups, you're quite simply a fool. And Everett does pullups once to twice a week, one of those efforts being a set of 40 or more - THAT'S why he's good at pullups.

Speaking of Everett, he said in a Performance Menu article after the 2008 Games that he "trains how he likes," and "if he was training to win the CrossFit Games, he would do the main site WOD."

Quote:
All I'm saying is that if you take a top olympic lifter and you train him in the movements that CF cares about, from running to muscle-ups to HSPUs, I'm sure that he will be an elite performer in very little time. The classical olympic lifts are the most powerful movements done in any CF gym, and perhaps the best tools for building the capacity to exhibit power. You can't do them at a high level without the strength to back it up, which is where powerlifting comes in, and you can't keep producing obscene amounts of power forever, which is where metcons come in. But a metcon-focused program for an under-strong athlete is dooming him to mediocrity. He'll be a stellar mid-level performer, if you catch my drift. There is a reason why the shift in CF recently has been towards hybrid strength and oly-lifting programs, from CFFB and CFSB to MEBB and the heavy hybrids, and towards technique-oriented instruction in other modalities like running. Simply put, somebody with whole-body capacity like an olympic lifter can hit the road or the bar or the rower and already has a great leg-up on every other athlete out there. Accuracy and efficiency are products of intelligent skill work and a few trials at high intensity.
I don't give a damn what "you're sure" of. What you're sure of is completely irrelevant without the data to back it up, and you have provided NO data.

The idea that things like CFFB, CFSB, and MEBB are "new hybrids" is, by the way, completely incorrect. I quote Coach (off the top of my head, these may not be his exact words): "We have found that the greatest increases in fitness come from pursuing headlong the things we are worst at." That means that you should work on strength development if you're weak. If you deadlift 700# and run a 9 minute mile, you should run. If you deadlift 500#, run a 5:15 mile, and can do 65 pullups, you're fit. Jeff Martin and Bingo, in the original CFJ article about CFSB say "Make no mistake, however; this is CrossFit. We are adamant on this point." And MEBB is simply taking the heavy day that often occurs on the main site WOD, putting it in the middle of the cycle, and working on specific lifts rather than random ones. Hardly groundbreaking. In fact, if I told you to do that with muscle-ups, you'd call it CrossFit.

Quote:
I'm not arguing that olympic lifting is the only good tool out there, because sprinting and gymnastics also have their benefits, but everything else seems to be a matter of technical competence. More accurately, that's technical competence which has been tested at high intensity by a few metcons.
To quote Coach (again off the top of my head, forgive me if this isn't verbatim,) "there are countless gymnastics movements infinitely more complex than the Olympic lifts."

Quote:
Hence, the occasional metcon in a program focused on high power output olympic lifts is the key. At least, that's what I'm seeing. Metcon-focused programs just lead to increasingly more efficient mid-level power production.
Once again, NO DATA! Prove it, Andrew!

CF Games 1st place, Mikko Salo - main site WOD. Snatches 195#, presses 176#, deadlifts 506#, squats 396#, power cleans 264. All impressive numbers, but not indicative of strength specialization.

CF Games 2nd place,Tommy Hackenbruck - Deadlift 475#, Press 195#, Clean and Jerk 275#, Snatch 195#. Again, good strength numbers, but not even close to those of a power lifter or Olympic Lifter. By the way, Hackenbruck qualified through the online qualifiers after FAILING to qualify at the Northwest regionals, which were heavily strength biased: one of the events was max deadlift, another was max clean and press. There was one metcon WOD, which Hackenbruck won by a wide margin.

CF Games 3rd place, Moe Kelsey - deadlift 485#, squat 405#, clean and jerk 245#. Same deal.

Lastly - Josh Everett, by FAR the best Olympic lifter at the Games, did not make it to the second day. I don't want to take anything away from Josh: he is an incredible athlete and a great guy. But the numbers stand: he didn't make it to the second day.

I wouldn't take all the time to do this if you weren't putting it in such a public domain, where new and impressionable CrossFitters may, God forbid, think you're right. Please do your research before spewing nonsense.
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Old 07-25-2009, 04:30 PM   #22
Justin Shipley
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Re: Structured Skill Development

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Originally Posted by Jacob Tsypkin View Post
Andrew,

Your post is utter silliness at best, and dangerously misleading to new CrossFitters at worst. It is for their sake that I take the time to deconstruct this.

Before I get into refuting your argument, however, I asked you to name ONE Olympic lifter who has become an elite CrossFitter. ONE. You failed to do so. CrossFit is not one workout, be it "Grace," "Fran," or "King Kong." All you gave me were speculations which you did not back up with any data. That is not an argument.



So, Morgan's performance in a workout that suits his abilities is proof that strength/power development is the crucial ingredient to success at CrossFit? Though he is certainly an impressively strong man, his ability to do well at things he's been doing for years does not prove a thing. There are a total of 6 muscle-ups and 12 handstand pushups in King Kong. They are not in any way the limiting factor in that work out. And your statement regarding Taner Sagir is, again, devoid of data. Yes, I think he'd have a much harder time with "Fran" than you expect, because he DOES NOT TRAIN IN THE GLYCOLYTIC PATHWAY.

Furthermore, all the workouts you list are of extremely short duration. What about "Helen?" What about "Badger?" What about a 5k run? Lastly, Casey Burgener did "Grace" in 2:12, AFTER several months of pure CrossFit. 2:12 is a good time, but it is NOT elite. Casey's "Fran," by the way, is 5:31.



Again with the short time domain. Konstantinov's feat is impressive, but how would he have fared in the 7.1k run, the couplet, the triplet, or the chipper at the CF Games? More importantly, if you think he doesn't do pullups, you're quite simply a fool. And Everett does pullups once to twice a week, one of those efforts being a set of 40 or more - THAT'S why he's good at pullups.

Speaking of Everett, he said in a Performance Menu article after the 2008 Games that he "trains how he likes," and "if he was training to win the CrossFit Games, he would do the main site WOD."



I don't give a damn what "you're sure" of. What you're sure of is completely irrelevant without the data to back it up, and you have provided NO data.

The idea that things like CFFB, CFSB, and MEBB are "new hybrids" is, by the way, completely incorrect. I quote Coach (off the top of my head, these may not be his exact words): "We have found that the greatest increases in fitness come from pursuing headlong the things we are worst at." That means that you should work on strength development if you're weak. If you deadlift 700# and run a 9 minute mile, you should run. If you deadlift 500#, run a 5:15 mile, and can do 65 pullups, you're fit. Jeff Martin and Bingo, in the original CFJ article about CFSB say "Make no mistake, however; this is CrossFit. We are adamant on this point." And MEBB is simply taking the heavy day that often occurs on the main site WOD, putting it in the middle of the cycle, and working on specific lifts rather than random ones. Hardly groundbreaking. In fact, if I told you to do that with muscle-ups, you'd call it CrossFit.



To quote Coach (again off the top of my head, forgive me if this isn't verbatim,) "there are countless gymnastics movements infinitely more complex than the Olympic lifts."



Once again, NO DATA! Prove it, Andrew!

CF Games 1st place, Mikko Salo - main site WOD. Snatches 195#, presses 176#, deadlifts 506#, squats 396#, power cleans 264. All impressive numbers, but not indicative of strength specialization.

CF Games 2nd place,Tommy Hackenbruck - Deadlift 475#, Press 195#, Clean and Jerk 275#, Snatch 195#. Again, good strength numbers, but not even close to those of a power lifter or Olympic Lifter. By the way, Hackenbruck qualified through the online qualifiers after FAILING to qualify at the Northwest regionals, which were heavily strength biased: one of the events was max deadlift, another was max clean and press. There was one metcon WOD, which Hackenbruck won by a wide margin.

CF Games 3rd place, Moe Kelsey - deadlift 485#, squat 405#, clean and jerk 245#. Same deal.

Lastly - Josh Everett, by FAR the best Olympic lifter at the Games, did not make it to the second day. I don't want to take anything away from Josh: he is an incredible athlete and a great guy. But the numbers stand: he didn't make it to the second day.

I wouldn't take all the time to do this if you weren't putting it in such a public domain, where new and impressionable CrossFitters may, God forbid, think you're right. Please do your research before spewing nonsense.
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Old 07-25-2009, 04:57 PM   #23
Kevin Kenyon
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Re: Structured Skill Development

Jacob,

All he was saying was that heavy oly lifting is by far the hardest to learn. WE DONT DO COMPLEX GYMNASTICS THAT ARE HARDER THAN OLY LIFTS IN CROSSFIT!

I agree that oly lifting is the hardest to learn. Throwing weight over your head is no joke. If you suck at oly lifting you wont do well at crossfit. If you never oly lifted in your life you will suck more then if you have....Most likely if you can toss weight above you then you are strong. You dont have to be olympic strength at oly lifting by any means but that should be obvious...Hackenbruck = d1 college football...sure he oly lifted a **** load....mikko salo im sure he oly lifted......I believe that if you have specialized to a sensible degree the skill of oly lifting before crossfit (in other words you have done it) and also have lifted heavy weights done sprints (in other words trained for sports) you will be better at cf then someone who hasnt. Now if I had never Oly lifted and I am a pinner then I will suck at cf.
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Old 07-25-2009, 08:59 PM   #24
Andrew H. Meador
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Re: Structured Skill Development

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Originally Posted by Jacob Tsypkin View Post
I don't give a damn what "you're sure" of.
Work and family safe:
http://www.ironscene.com/videos/1454...dimas_training

I'm pretty sure that this guy would have no problems with Grace, Fran, Isabel, Randy, the CFT, Diane, Elizabeth, Helen, Nancy, and even Eva. Were he to do a couple of weeks of Barbara, Cindy, and the like, he'd probably end up absolutely smoking the top guy at most CF affiliates in every workout they do. He obviously would have no trouble were the workout to be "front squat 5-3-3-1-1-1" or "overhead squat 3-3-3-3-3-3". I'm going to assume that he could quite easily do 15 bodyweight overhead squats, thereby surpassing a CF milestone that most of us never achieve. He makes a regular habit of yanking around a 400 lb. pull-up-bar-shaped object, so pull-ups and knees-to-elbows shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Also, Everett finished 3rd and 2nd in the previous games. I'll go ahead and assume that he's far and away better than most CrossFitters out there at almost any WOD, maybe any WOD, and he has stated that he rarely does a CF WOD. Unless that CF WOD happens to be C&J 1-1-1-1-1. True, there are videos of him doing more or less 2 minute long efforts like Isabel and King Kong, but he seems to do them as challenge events more than workouts.

Jacob, it's posts like yours that are turning me away from CF. Here's a guy who excels at the movement Coach Glassman calls "the king of all lifts", the clean, and is possibly the most successful athlete of all time in that movement (plus a few others), and you're acting like you could smoke him if the WOD lasted more than 5 minutes. Just keep AMRAP 20 sumo deadlift high-pulling your way to success.
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Old 07-25-2009, 09:35 PM   #25
Kevin Kenyon
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Re: Structured Skill Development

Andrew,

I agree with you that guy is unbelievable! Don't get turned away from crossfit its a great program. A lot of people here just like to talk talk talk. I didnt want to turn this into a debate thread I just wanted to learn the best way to be good at WODs even if that involved not doing them allll the time(sounds stupid..) lol
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Old 07-25-2009, 09:51 PM   #26
Jacob Tsypkin
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Re: Structured Skill Development

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Originally Posted by Kevin Kenyon View Post
Jacob,

All he was saying was that heavy oly lifting is by far the hardest to learn. WE DONT DO COMPLEX GYMNASTICS THAT ARE HARDER THAN OLY LIFTS IN CROSSFIT!
Apparently you haven't read the numerous CFJ articles which say we as CrossFitters should be practicing twists, pirouettes, and flips (I assure you, a standing back flip is more complex than a squat snatch.) There is also an article on pushups where Coach says something along the lines of "completing 20 freestanding handstand pushups is a feat of strength 1 in 100,000 will achieve." I clean 245#, deadlift 460#, press 185#, and can't do one freestanding handstand pushup. It's not because I'm not strong enough; it's an issue of kinesthetic awareness. I've got enough for squat snatches, but not freestanding HSPU.

Quote:
I agree that oly lifting is the hardest to learn. Throwing weight over your head is no joke. If you suck at oly lifting you wont do well at crossfit.
This is correct. Also, doing 70 kipping pullups, 15 straight muscle-ups, running a sub 60 second 400m or a sub 5 minute mile are not jokes, and if you suck at those things, you also won't do well at CrossFit.

Quote:
If you never oly lifted in your life you will suck more then if you have....Most likely if you can toss weight above you then you are strong. You dont have to be olympic strength at oly lifting by any means but that should be obvious...Hackenbruck = d1 college football...sure he oly lifted a **** load....mikko salo im sure he oly lifted......I believe that if you have specialized to a sensible degree the skill of oly lifting before crossfit (in other words you have done it) and also have lifted heavy weights done sprints (in other words trained for sports) you will be better at cf then someone who hasnt. Now if I had never Oly lifted and I am a pinner then I will suck at cf.
If you've never done ring dips or run in your life you will suck at them too. Again, Hackenbrucks clean and jerk is 275#...a strong C&J, to be sure, but certainly not the caliber of a serious strength athlete at his size. I asked Mikko and he did squats, front squats, cleans, and power cleans before CrossFit, so point conceded. However, he also did plenty of running (both short and distance,) rowing, and calisthenics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew H. Meador View Post
Work and family safe:
http://www.ironscene.com/videos/1454...dimas_training

I'm pretty sure that this guy would have no problems with Grace, Fran, Isabel, Randy, the CFT, Diane, Elizabeth, Helen, Nancy, and even Eva. Were he to do a couple of weeks of Barbara, Cindy, and the like, he'd probably end up absolutely smoking the top guy at most CF affiliates in every workout they do. He obviously would have no trouble were the workout to be "front squat 5-3-3-1-1-1" or "overhead squat 3-3-3-3-3-3". I'm going to assume that he could quite easily do 15 bodyweight overhead squats, thereby surpassing a CF milestone that most of us never achieve. He makes a regular habit of yanking around a 400 lb. pull-up-bar-shaped object, so pull-ups and knees-to-elbows shouldn't be too much of a problem.
Again with the "I'm pretty sures." It doesn't matter what you speculate, AND I provided you with data which disproved your claim - Casey Burgener clean and jerked near 500# and after several months of dedicated CrossFit, "Grace" took him 2:12 - not even NEAR a world record time (though certainly admirable nonetheless.)

Quote:
Also, Everett finished 3rd and 2nd in the previous games. I'll go ahead and assume that he's far and away better than most CrossFitters out there at almost any WOD, maybe any WOD, and he has stated that he rarely does a CF WOD. Unless that CF WOD happens to be C&J 1-1-1-1-1. True, there are videos of him doing more or less 2 minute long efforts like Isabel and King Kong, but he seems to do them as challenge events more than workouts.
I never said Everett wasn't fitter than most CrossFitters. Congratulations, you've provided me with one example of a fairly high level Olympic lifter also being a high level CrossFitter. However, Josh also says that his fitness is the result of the last 20 years of his training. He ran track before he did any weightlifting, and he didn't start Olympic lifting until he was in his early twenties (he started running track at about age 10, I believe.) However, two of the three events in the first Games favored him (the CrossFit Total obviously, and the Row/Pullup/Jerk WOD because he is a strong rower, very good at pullups, since he DOES THEM REGULARLY, and 135# push jerks clearly suit a strong Olympic lifter.) The second Games favored him because all four events were in his best time domain of sub-5 minutes. The 2009 Games were a far superior test of work capacity across BROAD TIME AND MODAL DOMAINS, and Josh didn't make it past the first day. Again, HE HIMSELF says that if he were training seriously for the Games, he would do the main site WOD.

Quote:
Jacob, it's posts like yours that are turning me away from CF. Here's a guy who excels at the movement Coach Glassman calls "the king of all lifts", the clean, and is possibly the most successful athlete of all time in that movement (plus a few others), and you're acting like you could smoke him if the WOD lasted more than 5 minutes. Just keep AMRAP 20 sumo deadlift high-pulling your way to success.
You act like I'm making this about me. I'm not; I'm dealing in data, and you're dealing in speculation. I never said Olympic lifting/barbell based strength & power aren't important in CrossFit. I said that it is 1/3 of what is important in CrossFit. If you disagree with that notion, you must not be paying attention. Elite weightlifters have come into CrossFit and shown (very) sub elite performances. If you do not see how that disproves the idea that elite weightlifters will dominate CrossFit, you must not understand how empiricism works.

I leave you with this, it may help you out. It's called "World Class Fitness in 100 Words":

Eat meat and vegetables, nuts and seeds, some fruit, little starch and no sugar. Keep intake to levels that will support exercise but not body fat. Practice and train major lifts: Deadlift, clean, squat, presses, C&J, and snatch. Similarly, master the basics of gymnastics: pull-ups, dips, rope climb, push-ups, sit-ups, presses to handstand, pirouettes, flips, splits, and holds. Bike, run, swim, row, etc, hard and fast. Five or six days per week mix these elements in as many combinations and patterns as creativity will allow. Routine is the enemy. Keep workouts short and intense. Regularly learn and play new sports.
~Greg Glassman
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Old 07-25-2009, 10:10 PM   #27
Kevin Kenyon
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Re: Structured Skill Development

Like I said, if you have dabbled in Olympic lifting as well as TRAINED FOR SPORTS SUCH AS sprints,quickness, agility, speed, and anaerobic threshold training etc then you will excel at Crossfit more than someone who has never done olympic lifts. Since there isnt a 20 free handstand WOD or 20 flips for time WOD I would say they dont matter as much as Olympic lifts. Also if you sprinted every 400m run at max speed so sub 60 seconds you would be toast for the rest of the WOD. Kipping Pullups x 70, sub 5 minute miles are no joke you are right. However, most people have done pullups and ran. So those are easier to pick up. Now tossing 170 kg over you head...come on lol. You are right specialization wont allow for success in Crossfit, however, Andrew is correct that an Olympic Lifter will dominate the top level Crossfit affiliates after doing crossfit. AND I MEAN OLYMPIC Competing lifters. And I spend a lot of time on the CFJ and I agree on a lot of things but dont agree on everything! GEEEEEZ....
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Old 07-25-2009, 10:27 PM   #28
Jacob Tsypkin
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Re: Structured Skill Development

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Like I said, if you have dabbled in Olympic lifting as well as TRAINED FOR SPORTS SUCH AS sprints,quickness, agility, speed, and anaerobic threshold training etc then you will excel at Crossfit more than someone who has never done olympic lifts.
So what you're saying is...if you have experience in things that you do in CrossFit, you will be better at the things you do in CrossFit? Oh. Well, since you put it that way...

Quote:
Since there isnt a 20 free handstand WOD or 20 flips for time WOD I would say they dont matter as much as Olympic lifts.
Saying that being able to do 20 freestanding HSPU isn't as useful as putting 170kg overhead because there are no WODs that call for 20 freestanding HSPU is like saying that putting 170kg overhead isn't as useful as putting 60kg overhead because there are no WODs that require you to put 170kg overhead. It's not just "like it," in fact, it's literally the same thing.

Quote:
Also if you sprinted every 400m run at max speed so sub 60 seconds you would be toast for the rest of the WOD.
Yes, but if you can run a sub 60 second 400m than running a 75-85 second 400m mid WOD is going to be a whole lot easier.

Quote:
Kipping Pullups x 70, sub 5 minute miles are no joke you are right. However, most people have done pullups and ran. So those are easier to pick up. Now tossing 170 kg over you head...come on lol.
Very few people have done kipping pullups, less have done muscle-ups or handstand pushups, most people who run don't actually RUN, they jog, and pretty much any guy who played high school football has done a few power cleans in his day.

Quote:
You are right specialization wont allow for success in Crossfit, however, Andrew is correct that an Olympic Lifter will dominate the top level Crossfit affiliates after doing crossfit. AND I MEAN OLYMPIC Competing lifters.
Oh, Olympic level lifters, you mean like the AFOREMENTIONED Casey Burgener? In case you don't know who that is, have a look (W/F safe) - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peqV-aDq6SU

He was slated to go to the Olympics and represent the U.S. in 2008, it was only a bureaucratic mishap that kept him from doing so.

You say "Andrew is correct that an Olympic lifter will dominate the top level CrossFit affiliates after doing CrossFit." BACK IT UP. Casey has been doing dedicated CrossFit training for a while now and is NOWHERE near elite numbers. His sister Sage, also a stellar weightlifter, has been CrossFitting as well, and again, her numbers are solid, but nothing amazing.

Quote:
And I spend a lot of time on the CFJ and I agree on a lot of things but dont agree on everything! GEEEEEZ....
No one told you that you had to agree with everything, or anything. But if you're going to say you disagree with something, you'd better provide the data to back it up, or at LEAST anecdotal evidence.

Keep in mind, Kevin, I'm not trying to berate you in any way; I am tired as hell right now and want to go to bed. I am reaching out because I love CrossFit, and am excited to see someone willing to do what it takes to get better at it. If you are weak, by all means, lift heavy things. However, do not start thinking that that is the key to being a high level CrossFitter just because it is a modal domain in which you personally are weak. That theory was disproven at the Games. You may want to entertain the notion that rather than being one of those people who likes to "talk talk talk," I actually know what I'm doing. The progress my athletes make, and the progress I have made myself, speak pretty well to that notion.
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Old 07-25-2009, 10:35 PM   #29
Kevin Kenyon
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Re: Structured Skill Development

I know man I like a good debate! At the end of the day everything has its place in Crossfit and nothing should be overlooked. I know you know what your talking about lol. The best way to get information from knowledgeable is to debate them. I want to be good. I want to do it smart and efficiently. I want it to be structured. Hence the title lol.
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Old 07-25-2009, 10:45 PM   #30
Andrew H. Meador
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Re: Structured Skill Development

Jacob, you're not dealing in data just as I'm not - there can't be a discussion involving points of data until a significant amount of elite weightlifters decide en masse to try out CrossFit for a bit of the old off-season training. You act like I've never conducted a laboratory experiment in school or have no grasp of the concept. I just don't think that there are enough valid data points to do anything but speculate. Furthermore, my small leaps of faith - statements like I'm pretty sure - are in fact FULL-THROATED SHOUTS!! Of course a competitive olympic lifter could freaking smoke the typical intermediate CF trainee. The obviousness of this statement has not eluded those of us who maintain some sort of strength or maximum power bias to our training. You can do push-ups until you're blue in the face but you won't exceed the capacity of a rings or p-bar competitive gymnast. A guy who can do 100 dips without leaving the bar will not have any problem with the 300-400 push-ups that are necessary to put out an elite Cindy time. Same goes for a top-notch 800m runner - you can't out-sprint him, and he can most assuredly outrun you in a marathon - if, in fact, you only follow the WOD. And in the meantime, his short-term advantage in power production would leave you wrestling with that hypothetical grizzly bear - all he has to do is outrun you for a couple hundred meters. Also, grizzlies can't climb well. Hence, we train gymnastics.

Bottom line, I'm tired of this old argument, and I'm not going to be convinced by any amount of zealotry. It appears you won't either. I've run under 5 in the mile and under 60 in the 400 in the same meet, and I have to say that at the time I could not have outcompeted my current self in any number of CF WODs. I owe that capacity largely to the olympic lifts. Now it's about time I work on those 100 dips...
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