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Old 04-19-2012, 01:45 PM   #71
James Orr
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Re: Cal Strength Does "Regular" Grace

Random question that's correlated to various posts in this thread.

Kendrick is awesome. He CJ'd 195kg at Nationals this year. But you have Pyrros Dimas who PR'd with 215. Both 85kg guys. Is the difference PED's?

Another random question. Do these guys cut weight before meets? I weight 193 lbs, and I sure don't look anything like either of them
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Old 04-19-2012, 01:48 PM   #72
Chris Mason
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Re: Cal Strength Does "Regular" Grace

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Originally Posted by Michael R. Miller View Post
Sounds good 50$ money order good I don't write checks? Do we get to practice like say we throw down the challenge today and have to post it here by.....sunday or Monday?

I have no problem getting my *** handed to me I am an avg CrossFitter at best so it should be interesting I think my max DL is 415 maybe I havent pulled in months.

185 is ~45% of my 1RM do you want to do it like that where you have to pull 45% or just 185?
Ok, sounds good. It doesn't have to be a money order...

If this helps, this is me doing 225 lbs a few years back. I think I was 220 lbs at the time and could pull in the high 600s.

WFS - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAJ67hxxAhY

If not, I'll do it not this coming Monday, but the next and take a video.
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Old 04-19-2012, 01:50 PM   #73
Chris Mason
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Re: Cal Strength Does "Regular" Grace

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Originally Posted by Rebecca Roth View Post
If it were a test of max reps at a given weight to failure, then yes of course the person with higher limit weight is going to win. That isn't the test in this case. I didn't contradict myself, they are two totally different tests, max reps to failure vs set # reps for time.
Ok Rebecca...

So, with a weight someone can do "indefinitely" as you put it, you don't think they can also move it quite quickly? You don't think someone can move 30% of their 1RM really fast???

The two tests are not necessarily different. They CAN be different, but are not necessarily different.

Anyhoo...
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Old 04-19-2012, 01:56 PM   #74
Rebecca Roth
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Re: Cal Strength Does "Regular" Grace

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Originally Posted by James Orr View Post
Kendrick is awesome. He CJ'd 195kg at Nationals this year. But you have Pyrros Dimas who PR'd with 215. Both 85kg guys. Is the difference PED's?
The answer is yes. The greeks are incredibly proud of their national weightlifters, but a couple years back two greek weightlifters were revealed to have quite the doping regimen (though probably not as elaborate as the bulgraians) bringin shame on the sport in their eyes. Its incredibly likely the same doping was going on in previous years...

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Another random question. Do these guys cut weight before meets? I weight 193 lbs, and I sure don't look anything like either of them
Well obviously I can't say anything for these specific guys, or their plans before a meet, but yes basically all weight class athletes do, including every weightlifter I've ever seen talk about prepping for a meet.
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Old 04-19-2012, 01:57 PM   #75
Chris Mason
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Re: Cal Strength Does "Regular" Grace

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Originally Posted by Jacob Tsypkin View Post
Dependent on the lifter. Jon is super efficient: his best clean is 200 from the floor, best back squat is 227, for 88%. Donny, on the other hand, has cleaned 215 (I think) from the floor, with a lifetime PR of 301 in the back squat, for 71.5%. Both lifters have cleaned more from the blocks (225 for Donny, 205 or 210 for Jon.) I don't know about other top level lifters in the U.S., but I feel confident that there isn't really a common trend of U.S. lifters being more strong or more efficient.

Note: these numbers are from memory. I could be off, but generally my memory serves me well.
Interesting... Well, think of it this way; I have seen a video of Hossein Reza Zadeh front squatting over 600 lbs for 3 EASY reps and his best competition clean is what, 560 something lbs, right? That man can most certainly front squat well over 700 lbs for a single... Now, I have no idea what the beast can back squat, but I would not be surprised by 900 lbs+. In other words, it seems like he has a massive overabundance of absolute strength I feel confident helps his success...

Anyway, just food for thought. As the other fellow mentioned, I am certainly no expert on the sport of O-lifting, but the best lifters I have ever heard about were ALSO beast strong.
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Old 04-19-2012, 01:59 PM   #76
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Re: Cal Strength Does "Regular" Grace

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Originally Posted by Arturo Garcia View Post
I find it kind of funny that nobody has mentioned that 4 years ago, another California Strength lifter tried Grace for the first time!!!

http://board.crossfit.com/showthread.php?t=28368 (WFS)

Donnie Shankle. He got 1:47. On page 2 of this thread Glenn Pendlay himself chimes in, clearly states Donny probably didn't even know what CF was prior to this workout, and hadn't done over 2 reps of anything in maybe a year. Fun thread.

Back then everyone thought 1:47 was a beastly time. Even if Donnie strict pressed the first 15 reps or so (lol). I think even back then he was capable of a 440+ pounds C+J, from reading Glenn's post.
See, now that is more along the lines of what I would expect from a good O-lifter.
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Old 04-19-2012, 02:01 PM   #77
Chris Mason
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Re: Cal Strength Does "Regular" Grace

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He just got popped for HGH... I think a 2 year ban...

wfs
http://www.usada.org/media/sanction-mendes4162012
I know, I saw the news story. My point was that if PEDs are the reason the US is not competitive and this guy even using at least growth was still a long ways from the best (even just counting his gyms lifts) then I think that undermines the drugs argument a bit. Then again, maybe not. Just a thought.
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Old 04-19-2012, 02:16 PM   #78
Rebecca Roth
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Re: Cal Strength Does "Regular" Grace

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Ok Rebecca...

So, with a weight someone can do "indefinitely" as you put it, you don't think they can also move it quite quickly? You don't think someone can move 30% of their 1RM really fast???

The two tests are not necessarily different. They CAN be different, but are not necessarily different.

Anyhoo...
They certainly can move it fast, but someone moving 30% de-conditioned vs someone moving 50% who is well conditioned, both going balls to the wall, the de-conditioned lifter is going to hit the wall first due to his lack of conditioning long before the weaker lifter can't lift his weight anymore. I think I get what you are saying now, but I still don't agree, IN the case of spencer's heavy grace - yes, he was able to lift faster due to being able to pace the lifts because he required less rest, because of his higher limit strength... but going back to the test we are talking about here, when you are just going balls to the wall in a test that is going to last hopefully <2:00, there is no opportunity to purposely pace yourself faster than your competitor, you are reliant upon your body's physical limits of both strength and conditioning, when at light weight pushing faster means you hit the conditioning limit before the strength limit.
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Old 04-19-2012, 02:33 PM   #79
Chris Mason
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Re: Cal Strength Does "Regular" Grace

Rebecca,

My point is, and has been the whole time, that absolute strength has a carryover to strength endurance with light loads AND that FACT made me surprised the guys in the video did not do better at Grace. The fellow Donny who did it in 1:47 mentioned by Arturo is much more along the lines of what I would have expected.

Strength is extremely specific in all forms. Most certainly training for strength endurance with a given load will make the individual have more strength endurance at that load. So, sure, someone who has trained with say 315 lbs for reps in the deadlift may be able to match or beat someone else who has a significantly better 1RM max but has not trained specifically for endurance with 315 for reps to failure.
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Old 04-19-2012, 02:42 PM   #80
Jacob Tsypkin
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Re: Cal Strength Does "Regular" Grace

Quote:
Originally Posted by James Orr View Post
Random question that's correlated to various posts in this thread.

Kendrick is awesome. He CJ'd 195kg at Nationals this year. But you have Pyrros Dimas who PR'd with 215. Both 85kg guys. Is the difference PED's?

Another random question. Do these guys cut weight before meets? I weight 193 lbs, and I sure don't look anything like either of them
The reasons are many and varied. PEDs are one. The lifts being taught rather poorly in the U.S. is another. The lacking athlete pool is a third.

It really comes down to money, and specifically the lack of it. There is no money in weightlifting. If there were money, there would be athletes. If there were a larger athlete pool, the coaching would be better. If these things came together and the U.S. cared about/was good at weightlifting, PED use would not be stigmatized. As it is, weightlifting is a sort of scapegoat sport for the USADA. We test the crap out of our lifters, and then have all these figures that say "look how stringent we are about drug testing!" But athletes in sports that bring money in - track & field, gymnastics, swimming...sports we're good at - you'd better believe they're doping.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Rebecca Roth View Post
The answer is yes. The greeks are incredibly proud of their national weightlifters, but a couple years back two greek weightlifters were revealed to have quite the doping regimen (though probably not as elaborate as the bulgraians) bringin shame on the sport in their eyes. Its incredibly likely the same doping was going on in previous years...


Well obviously I can't say anything for these specific guys, or their plans before a meet, but yes basically all weight class athletes do, including every weightlifter I've ever seen talk about prepping for a meet.
Rebecca, if you are under the impression that vast majority - in fact, pretty much all - lifters on the world class level are not on drugs, you are sorely mistaken. Drugs are part of the sport in the rest of the world. It's not just the Greeks, and it wasn't just the Bulgarians. It's everyone.

Also, it depends on what you mean by "cutting weight." Donny sometimes doesn't eat the morning of a meet, but he's not having to work to drop a bunch of weight. Jon is often underweight. Rob tells me that Glenn generally wants him to weigh no less than 87.3 (he competes as an 85) the night before a meet, because he drops weight so fast. None of the guys there are really "cutting" weight...at most they are slightly over and just do a little bit of hyper hydration and don't eat the evening before/morning of. It is rare that weightlifters would cut weight in the way a boxer or wrestler would. I've never met any lifter who drops 10kg to weigh in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Mason View Post
Rebecca,

My point is, and has been the whole time, that absolute strength has a carryover to strength endurance with light loads AND that FACT made me surprised the guys in the video did not do better at Grace. The fellow Donny who did it in 1:47 mentioned by Arturo is much more along the lines of what I would have expected.

Strength is extremely specific in all forms. Most certainly training for strength endurance with a given load will make the individual have more strength endurance at that load. So, sure, someone who has trained with say 315 lbs for reps in the deadlift may be able to match or beat someone else who has a significantly better 1RM max but has not trained specifically for endurance with 315 for reps to failure.
Chris, Jon's time (1:38) in this video was faster than Donny's (1:47.) Are you referring to the way Donny "handled" the weight, that is, the weight seemed lighter to him than it did to Jon, since Donny was basically pressing for the first 15 reps or so?
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