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Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

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Old 04-19-2012, 12:35 PM   #51
Rebecca Roth
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Re: Cal Strength Does "Regular" Grace

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Originally Posted by Jacob Tsypkin View Post
Qualifying totals and rankings after Nationals attached (W/F safe.)

Kendrick is in first by a mile. Donny is in second. Chad is closer than I thought, but he will have to up his game in a big way from what he did at Nationals to compete. We get one men's spot, and who will go is decided solely by the man who has the highest percentage of the world average in their weight class.

Chad needs 342 to overtake Kendrick, a 17kg improvement. Donny needs 388, which looks, on paper, like an 18kg improvement. But Donny went into Nationals with a bruised heel, and after not making his 3rd attempt snatch at 170, decided to play it safe on the C&J to protect the heel, making a very easy 205. Healthy and strong, I am of the opinion that he is more likely to total 388 than Chad is to total 342. Of course, this is all assuming Kendrick does not improve upon his total of 355.
Didn't Kendrick get injured or something late last year too though? I just remember him bombing a number of lifts badly at the last major meet I watched (maybe americas open.. I don't remember)
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Old 04-19-2012, 12:36 PM   #52
Bryan Kemper
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Re: Cal Strength Does "Regular" Grace

Kendrick Farris hosted an "Ask an Olympian" on his Facebook page last week.

My question:
"Why is it so difficult for countries to obtain qualifying slots for the Olympics? We were able to obtain 2 womens slots and only have the potential for a single male slot dependent on our performance at the Pan Ams. There 8 mens/7 womens weight classes and we only get maybe three athletes to compete at the Olympics? How is this different from any other sport?"

Response:
"@Bryan All the Olympic sports have different qualifying procedures, weightlifting is an individual sport but we depend on each other to perform well at our Qualifying Events. Most sports are either true team sports or already have a set number athletes that can qualify for the games. Weightlifting on the other hand depends on those Individual performances to score points for slots. These other countries are extreme stacked and in some cases having two athletes that can win a weight class competing at worlds for points. I think the next time around we'll have more athletes representing. "


Bottom line: The US did not do well in the International arena to earn any more Olympic WLing entries. Hopefully, these so-called "clowns" at Cal Strength will continue to excel as they have done, lift well when it counts and help field a full team of 15 US Men and Women in 2016. In addition, we to have more and more lifters compete in Olympic Weightlifting meets that inspire thier children to continue to lift and help the US improve on the International level.

How many people before Crossfit were exposed to the sport of Olympic Weightlifting or if they were, actually had the facilities or equipment to actually perform the lifts without being thrown out of a globo-gym/Planet fitness/university fitness center?

These guys seem to be great lifters and good people. Don't bash on them.
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Old 04-19-2012, 12:47 PM   #53
Jacob Tsypkin
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Re: Cal Strength Does "Regular" Grace

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Originally Posted by Rebecca Roth View Post
Didn't Kendrick get injured or something late last year too though? I just remember him bombing a number of lifts badly at the last major meet I watched (maybe americas open.. I don't remember)
As far as I know, Kendrick is/was not injured. At Pan Ams, he got kind of screwed on his last attempt C&J by a timing error and what seemed to be poor handling on his coaches part. At the American Open...well, he bombed the C&J. Regardless, he came back swinging at Nationals with a stellar performance, and is right now very clearly the man to beat.

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Originally Posted by Bryan Kemper View Post
Bottom line: The US did not do well in the International arena to earn any more Olympic WLing entries. Hopefully, these so-called "clowns" at Cal Strength will continue to excel as they have done, lift well when it counts and help field a full team of 15 US Men and Women in 2016. In addition, we to have more and more lifters compete in Olympic Weightlifting meets that inspire thier children to continue to lift and help the US improve on the International level.

How many people before Crossfit were exposed to the sport of Olympic Weightlifting or if they were, actually had the facilities or equipment to actually perform the lifts without being thrown out of a globo-gym/Planet fitness/university fitness center?

These guys seem to be great lifters and good people. Don't bash on them.
Yep. There's no money in the sport, no coverage - we're just not very good at it, simple as that. And for the record, the Cal Strength guys ARE clowns. They're a fun group of guys, and they don't talk trash about CrossFit (although Rob does constantly reminds me that he does not understand why people put themselves through it.) They're very good weightlifters, and they, and Glenn, were kind enough to let me train with them every Friday, despite the fact that I am a real crappy lifter, and EVEN THOUGH I own a CrossFit affiliate. How about we support these guys, enjoy watching them suffer through "Grace," and help them promote the sport of weightlifting in the U.S.?
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Old 04-19-2012, 12:57 PM   #54
Bryan Kemper
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Re: Cal Strength Does "Regular" Grace

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Originally Posted by Jacob Tsypkin View Post
As far as I know, Kendrick is/was not injured. At Pan Ams, he got kind of screwed on his last attempt C&J by a timing error and what seemed to be poor handling on his coaches part. At the American Open...well, he bombed the C&J. Regardless, he came back swinging at Nationals with a stellar performance, and is right now very clearly the man to beat.



Yep. There's no money in the sport, no coverage - we're just not very good at it, simple as that. And for the record, the Cal Strength guys ARE clowns. They're a fun group of guys, and they don't talk trash about CrossFit (although Rob does constantly reminds me that he does not understand why people put themselves through it.) They're very good weightlifters, and they, and Glenn, were kind enough to let me train with them every Friday, despite the fact that I am a real crappy lifter, and EVEN THOUGH I own a CrossFit affiliate. How about we support these guys, enjoy watching them suffer through "Grace," and help them promote the sport of weightlifting in the U.S.?
Okay, maybe clowns in the sense that they enjoy what they do and have fun with it, but not "clowns" in a negative sense by any means. I would imagine that any of us would enjoy lifting with them. Jon North had a recent blog post about a personal conundrum about his future as a coach vs a lifter. He apparently is a pretty good young coach that does good lifting seminars, ie much better revenue stream than as a US Olympic lifter.
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Old 04-19-2012, 01:00 PM   #55
Rebecca Roth
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Re: Cal Strength Does "Regular" Grace

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Yep. There's no money in the sport, no coverage - we're just not very good at it, simple as that.
Speaking of which... Donny's efforts are entirely self funded. If anyone has a few bucks to spare to make his life a little easier to allow him to continue to train like he does, you can donate via the link on his blog - http://donnyshankle.blogspot.com/ (not sure if wfs, i don't read regularly)


Another, curious thing I realized from this video and the spencer video, we quite often get people *****ing about how cfers are the only unreasonable people who work out without shirts on.... yet I am realizing, every freakin time the Cal Strength guys are on video/streaming, shirts are sure to come off, and they aren't doing it to show off their sixpacks.
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Old 04-19-2012, 01:00 PM   #56
Chris Mason
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Re: Cal Strength Does "Regular" Grace

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First of all, this is just a conversation...I'm certainly not about to question you here.

That said, I'm not sure I'm understanding clearly. Are you saying that "your strength endurance with light loads is pretty decent simply because your absolute strength is what it is, and this should hold true for these lifters, so because it looks like it did not hold true, something is wrong?"

If that's what you are saying (I think it is) then I think your (learned and respected) opinion and the video evidence of these elite lifters might have something to teach us: that the magical "strength is king" benefit we always talk about does not realize its potential unless you train it to do so.

I'd argue that your strength endurance with light loads is pretty decent because of your absolute strength and because your programming includes strength endurance (metcons), no?

Conversely, I'd wager that this vid and the vids of Spencer doing heavy grace represent pretty much the entire body of metcon work this boys have done in recent history (months/years). They train in heavy singles, doubles, triples and maybe fives, with 3-5 minutes of rest in between sometimes.

I personally think it makes perfect sense that a 1m50s effort kicked their butts and taxed their form. Their central nervous systems are trained at a top 1% level for short term (phosphagenic) metabolism only...which peaks at about 10 seconds of effort, and is GONE after 30 seconds. Their glycolytic and and aerobic systems are probably severely under-trained even in comparison to an average housewife crossfitter.
I am glad you are not questioning me because if you do you would be wrong on this particular topic.

No, I do not do Met-Cons in my regular training or even remotely often. In fact, almost never.

I was pretty clear, but I will restate; my strength endurance, and the strength endurance (if we define strength endurance as something which involves say 30-100 repetitions) of any individual will increase as does their absolute strength when we are talking about a given load. So, for example, if I can deadlift 775 lbs I can do 135 lbs for a LOT of repetitions, many more than when I could only deadlift 300 lbs as a 1RM. Of course, if when I could pull 300 lbs for a 1RM I had trained specifically with 135 for maximum reps and had developed specific strength endurance with that given load I may have been close to what I can do with my now greatly increased absolute strength.

Here is another real life example of my strength endurance vs. that of a CrossFitter and ultra marathoner. At at CF cert Louie had the CFers pulling a sled around the business park building which houses his gym. I think it is about 1/4 mile around. We were pulling one 45 lbs plate with a sled for time. I tied the best CFer in that activity. Why? Pulling that sled is almost like pulling nothing for me while it is a lot more work for them. Their general endurance capacity allowed them to handle what is a heavier relative load at a higher working rate for the time around the course. My absolute strength allowed me to handle the relatively light load more easily as thus be competitive with their superior overall endurance.

Of course, this all breaks down at some point and there are many, many WODs I cannot even come close to a good CFer on.

My whole point is that I am very surprised those O-lifters with their 1RM strength were not handling the loads more easily. It is surprising, but then again perhaps not as our US O-lifters may be lacking in absolute strength instead relying more on technique thus blurring the whole absolute strength argument... Hmmmm..... Food for thought.
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Old 04-19-2012, 01:06 PM   #57
Chris Mason
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Re: Cal Strength Does "Regular" Grace

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You are stating accurate information, but missing the point. Of course you will be able to pretty much continue lifting 30% of your 1RM indefinitely, but when de-conditioned you won't be able to maintain your max effort starting pace for very long, making you (regardless of your ability to continue easily performing reps from a strength standpoint) slower than the guy who isn't as strong but is very well conditioned - which is what everyone else is saying. At this light of weight, conditioning has more of an impact on performing well, but on a heavy test like what Rob/Spencer did it favors limit strength much more than conditioning.
I'm not missing any point... Lol... Oh man... MY POINT IS THAT I WAS SURPRISED THE US O-LIFTERS WHO ARE EVIDENTLY QUITE STRONG WERE NOT HANDLING WHAT IS A LOW PERCENTAGE OF THEIR 1RM MAX MORE EASILY.

Do you realize you just contradicted yourself above? You said of course I would be able to handle 30% of my 1RM indefinitely, then you said that with a light weight (which I am pretty sure 30% of 1RM is) conditioning is more important than absolute strength.

Anyway, yes, if one trains for strength endurance with a given load then they will develop it. Strength is VERY training specific, but absolute strength DOES have a significant carryover to demonstrable strength endurance with lighter loads.

That's all . See my last point above.
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Old 04-19-2012, 01:10 PM   #58
Chris Mason
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Re: Cal Strength Does "Regular" Grace

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Fine you can do more reps at 30% based on your 1RM max big deal. The point is how fast???? The guy with the bigger 1RM max is not the guy who finishes first everytime.

Rob Orlandos max dead is 625-655 something like that but he can do 500lbs for like 20 reps and probably faster then most powerlifters. I would put money on it.
You might not want to put much money on it especially if said powerlifting trained with 500 lbs for about 3 sessions for AMRAP...

I never said the person with the greatest absolute strength finishes first every time (unless we are talking powerlifting...). That wasn't even remotely close to my point.

Anyway, you are probably a pretty conditioned guy, right? Surely a lot more than me who does pretty much ZERO conditioning work. Would you like to place some money on which one of us can do 50 reps with say 185 lbs in the deadlift faster?
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Old 04-19-2012, 01:15 PM   #59
Chris Mason
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Re: Cal Strength Does "Regular" Grace

I do want to make one final point clear.

I was not bashing US O-lifting for what those guys did in the video. I merely expressed my own genuine surprise they did not crank out 135 lbs a LOT faster than they did. That is all.

For anyone who wants to try to lecture me on the intricacies of strength and endurance, please save your breath. I don't know everything, but that is one topic I am relatively well versed on...
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Old 04-19-2012, 01:17 PM   #60
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Re: Cal Strength Does "Regular" Grace

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It's true the US is definitely not doing great on an international scale, but a huge part of that is due to PED regimens. Either way, that topic has been beaten to death both here and on pendlay's forum... the fact of the matter is that the CalStrength guys are some of the best in the country, which is not something to scoff at, especially when one of them is quite possibly going to be the only man representing our country at the Olympics (I'm not sure on the status of this).
If you believe that, how do you explain Pat Mendes not being more competitive internationally?
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