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Fitness Theory and Practice. CrossFit's rationale & foundations. Who is fit? What is fitness?

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Old 02-18-2014, 07:54 PM   #11
Chris Ross
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Re: movnat style training - opinions

Thanks for the replies. Definately not an ad, but I guess I'm enthusiastic as this style of training has opened my eyes up to some big gaps in my training.

I agree that skills + strength etc make for a better athlete than skills alone, and there would be nothing to stop you devoting perhaps 20-30% of your training time to improving strength via back squats etc. But the skills, (and there's so many to practice) should be the bread and butter for most people since they are severly lacking in modern humans.

The problem to me is that CF touts itself as a GPP system to get you prepared for the 'unknowable'. In reality its just strength and/or cardio.

Some hybrid of movnat + some linear strength work is where I think real GPP begins.
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Old 02-18-2014, 08:11 PM   #12
Matt Thomas
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Re: movnat style training - opinions

I think you're making false assertions about the results of CF athletes and decently programmed CF training.

What of the things that you've listed haven't been tested in the game?
- weighted carries? check
- running? check
- swimming? check
- lifting? check
- balance? check

the only one I don't know about are combat.

Look if this is what is going to keep you interested in training that's awesome.

But I absolutely disagree with you that someone who trains exclusively bodyweight / movenat is going to be more generally prepared then someone who is strong in basic lifts, has good conditioning, and and spends 10% of their training time developing different skills.

Edit: I honestly hate getting into these hypotheticals, but I definitely think any regional level CF competitor could do every single thing on that movnat video, but am 99% positive the movnat guy would barely make it to regionals and would get crushed there if he did.

Last edited by Matt Thomas; 02-18-2014 at 08:14 PM..
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Old 02-18-2014, 08:15 PM   #13
Jeff Enge
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Re: movnat style training - opinions

Here's the problem I see. Most people do this stuff as a pasttime, a small part of their lives. What a gym with your typical CrossFit program gives is a consistent and mostly time-constrained place to build that fitness. Is it perfect for every situation you'll see in the world? No, obviously not, and it doesn't claim to be. But to do your program, you'd have to find a different place to do many of those things - not a lot of gyms have a combination of legitimate swimming, fighting, and climbing setups, for instance.

I guess my point is, if it's something you have the time, means and desire to do, by all means give it a try. It's simply not practical for the majority of people out there.

And I agree with Matt, most even semi-decent athletes that do CrossFit are plenty competent at all your listed "basic human movements."
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Old 02-19-2014, 09:02 AM   #14
Bob Herald
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Re: movnat style training - opinions

I agree op crossfit can be kinda gimmicky. Crossfit makes you better at crossfit. That's like crossfiters thinking they can fight because they have a good Fran time. Or all of the knuckleheads that I've heard say they train "MMA" by lifting weights at LA fitness.

I think one of the most functional forms of strength is grappling strength. Lifting , moving, and controlling another human body builds a different strength. There a lot of guys that can deadlift squat and press way more than me.. But I have chimpanzee strength and can man handle them. Lol.

btw I'm a long time Purple belt
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Old 02-19-2014, 09:17 AM   #15
Matt Thomas
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Re: movnat style training - opinions

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Originally Posted by Bob Herald View Post
That's like crossfiters thinking they can fight because they have a good Fran time.
No it's really not the same at all.


What you just proved to me is that you are strong at a specific type of strength. You just admitted that there are people who can squat and deadlift way more than you. So they're strong at another type of strength. Why is your type better? Because you can beat them up? If you want to be good at fighting...great. Then your type is better. If someone else's goal is not to be good at fighting then your type of strength is not better.

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Old 02-19-2014, 10:30 AM   #16
Vickie Ellickson
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Re: movnat style training - opinions

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Originally Posted by Bob Herald View Post
I think one of the most functional forms of strength is grappling strength. Lifting , moving, and controlling another human body builds a different strength. There a lot of guys that can deadlift squat and press way more than me.. But I have chimpanzee strength and can man handle them. Lol.

btw I'm a long time Purple belt
I'd venture to say that the reason you manhandle people who can lift more than you has more to do with technique and less to do with the strength that you've acquired from grappling. Which is not to say that you don't get strong from grappling. But that's not why you're manhandling stronger guys.
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Old 02-19-2014, 11:37 AM   #17
Bob Herald
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Re: movnat style training - opinions

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Originally Posted by Matt Thomas View Post
No it's really not the same at all.


What you just proved to me is that you are strong at a specific type of strength. You just admitted that there are people who can squat and deadlift way more than you. So they're strong at another type of strength. Why is your type better? Because you can beat them up? If you want to be good at fighting...great. Then your type is better. If someone else's goal is not to be good at fighting then your type of strength is not better.

Precisely! Which supports my opinion that a modality is only "functional" if you can apply it in your life. I am more likely to fight somebody and require that form of strength than I am to throw a heavy weight over my head. I only mentioned the weightlifter thinking he can fight because he lifts, because I have encountered that individual more than once.

Vickie, technique is a major factor when fighting the lesser trained individual, but Even Carlson Gracie Sr. Admitted that technique being equal, strength prevails. An individual with higher squat and deadlift numbers does not make him stronger than me. It means he's stronger at the squat and deadlift.
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Old 02-19-2014, 11:45 AM   #18
Jeff Enge
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Re: movnat style training - opinions

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Originally Posted by Bob Herald View Post
Precisely! Which supports my opinion that a modality is only "functional" if you can apply it in your life. I am more likely to fight somebody and require that form of strength than I am to throw a heavy weight over my head. I only mentioned the weightlifter thinking he can fight because he lifts, because I have encountered that individual more than once.
I'm more likely to throw a heavy weight over my head than fight. So, "fuctional" by your definition is a relative term.


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Originally Posted by Bob Herald View Post
An individual with higher squat and deadlift numbers does not make him stronger than me. It means he's stronger at the squat and deadlift.
That doesn't make any sense. The squat and the deadlift are measurements of strength. How would you go about quantifying who has more strength without those or similiar tests?
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Old 02-19-2014, 11:55 AM   #19
Matt Thomas
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Re: movnat style training - opinions

You're really arguing that picking up heavy loads / objects, having a strong lower back, hamstrings, glutes, quads, and being able to move heavy objects overhead are not applicable to real life?

It's more applicable to every day life to be strong rolling around on the ground fighting someone?

If so we might as well be arguing about whether or not gravity exists and in that case well...you win and I quit.
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Old 02-19-2014, 12:44 PM   #20
Dean Lehmkuhler
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Re: movnat style training - opinions

GPP is just that. Skill is independent of GPP and can exist with or without GPP. GPP is not athleticism either. Ideally, you would have both, but they are different ideals.

Crossfit is fitness oriented, not athleticism oriented. Very fit people can still be terrible athletes and some excellent athletes are not all that fit...
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