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Old 02-06-2009, 03:20 PM   #21
Oliver Bradley
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Re: Brown Rice?

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Originally Posted by Nate Aye View Post
RE: The China Study

Dr. T Collin Cambell's China Study has been discredited numerous times, he has been accused of misinterpreting the data in order to support his hypothesis that consuming any animal based foods increase the rate of chronic disease, but in the same breath says that the correlation between those that ate more meat and those who didn't and cancer rates was inconclusive at best. There was an interesting debate between Dr. Cambell and Dr. Loren Cordain (author of The Paleo Diet). Bottom line, there is an overwhelming amount of research out there, and a lot of researchers out there count on people not reading the fine print when they publish a study. Bottom line, Dr. Cambell is a quack, and has been disproved by Dr. Cordain, Gary Taubes, and others.

Nate
Clearly you have never read the book. There is no way the entire content of the book "the China Study" has been disproved. I know this is a common idea on these boards but calling Dr. Cambell a quack because you disagree with his research is silly. The guy has been commended hundreds of times and started out as a staunch meat-eater. Also its not just the china study that leads to his conclusions - there are literally hundreds of studies conducted that have pointed in the same direction.

Whether or not you agree with his findings is certainly up for debate I will admit as there is valid research on both sides of the argument. Also I doubt you can disagree with the caloric intake measured in the study?
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Old 02-06-2009, 11:30 PM   #22
Blair Robert Lowe
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Re: Brown Rice?

From what I have heard, Okinawan people eat a spare amount of meat. I wonder if this is simply a matter of how much they can afford to eat.

As to eating any of the fatty meats, we are talking about in Japan here. Meat prices there are quite expensive compared to the US of A. Chicken and fish are moderately price and I hear pork isn't too expensive but the other stuff is, especially dairy. Eggs are more expensive there than here.

As for brown rice, on paper it looks better than white and I'm sure it is. However, some of my friends who are high carb eats decided to go brown rice and to end they are both still fat and soft ( though they need to get off their *** to the gym ).
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Old 02-07-2009, 05:27 AM   #23
Darryl Shaw
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Re: Brown Rice?

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Originally Posted by Ryan Jones View Post
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Originally Posted by Darryl Shaw
As you've observed people eating high carb diets don't necessarily get fat and that's because there's nothing inherantly fattening about carbs or any other macronutrient. What you weigh and whether or not you gain or lose weight depends almost entirely on your calorie intake; too many kcals and you gain weight too few and you lose weight.
That is not universally accepted as true. I for one believe its the exact opposite of truth, as do all the other Taubes followers.
Well, it's a free country so I guess you and your fellow Taubesites (Taubies?) are free to believe whatever you want regardless of how misguided you are.
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Old 02-07-2009, 05:59 AM   #24
Blair Robert Lowe
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Re: Brown Rice?

Asians are much more carb tolerant than caucasians. Meditterean people are probably ahead of the Northern Europeans slightly and Near to Middle Eastern people are probably ahead of them and on par or ahead of Asians.
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Old 02-07-2009, 06:16 AM   #25
Andrew Durham
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Re: Brown Rice?

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Originally Posted by Blair Robert Lowe View Post
As to eating any of the fatty meats, we are talking about in Japan here. Meat prices there are quite expensive compared to the US of A. Chicken and fish are moderately price and I hear pork isn't too expensive but the other stuff is, especially dairy. Eggs are more expensive there than here.
.
Beef can get pretty expensive here. Especially if you are comparing the price to the dollar. Right now the dollar is really suckin. A lot of the fatty fatty beef is considered luxury here. That's the real expensive stuff. Luckily for me I live right by a fishing port. Any day of the week I can go down and get fresh, decently priced, fish. Chicken is about the same.
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Old 02-08-2009, 07:37 AM   #26
Nate Aye
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Re: Brown Rice?

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Originally Posted by Oliver Bradley View Post
Clearly you have never read the book. There is no way the entire content of the book "the China Study" has been disproved. I know this is a common idea on these boards but calling Dr. Cambell a quack because you disagree with his research is silly. The guy has been commended hundreds of times and started out as a staunch meat-eater. Also its not just the china study that leads to his conclusions - there are literally hundreds of studies conducted that have pointed in the same direction.

Whether or not you agree with his findings is certainly up for debate I will admit as there is valid research on both sides of the argument. Also I doubt you can disagree with the caloric intake measured in the study?
You are right, I haven't read the book, my money is better spent elsewhere. But frankly speaking, I resent the implication that I form my opinions based on the themes of these message boards. I've read the Protein Debate, a series of essays and rebuttals between Cambell and Cordain. I'm not a blind follower of Cordain either since I choose to consume dairy. But after seeing two sides of the argument presented clearly and fairly, I choose to side with the one who seems the least full of . It also doesn't take a phd, an NIH funded study, or even half a brain to tell me that people in developing countries who don't live sedentary lifestyles and eat a diet primarily consisting of un or minimally processed foods will have fewer detriments to their health than the average westerner who subsists himself primarily at 7-11. Now assuming we are all on here to pursue elite fitness, it can never hope to be reached following Cambells advice that <%12 of total calories come from protein. Therein lies the real issue. Sorry to ramble, as I do enjoy spirited discussion. Cheers
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Old 02-08-2009, 08:44 AM   #27
Shawn Casey
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Re: Brown Rice?

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Originally Posted by Nate Aye View Post
You are right, I haven't read the book, my money is better spent elsewhere. But frankly speaking, I resent the implication that I form my opinions based on the themes of these message boards. I've read the Protein Debate, a series of essays and rebuttals between Cambell and Cordain. I'm not a blind follower of Cordain either since I choose to consume dairy. But after seeing two sides of the argument presented clearly and fairly, I choose to side with the one who seems the least full of . It also doesn't take a phd, an NIH funded study, or even half a brain to tell me that people in developing countries who don't live sedentary lifestyles and eat a diet primarily consisting of un or minimally processed foods will have fewer detriments to their health than the average westerner who subsists himself primarily at 7-11. Now assuming we are all on here to pursue elite fitness, it can never hope to be reached following Cambells advice that <%12 of total calories come from protein. Therein lies the real issue. Sorry to ramble, as I do enjoy spirited discussion. Cheers

I agree with this guy. You can argue all you want, but the folks on this board tend to point to the paleo diet, zone, protein power, anabolic diet and have seen some pretty damn good results as far as performance is concerned, myself included. better than when I ate brown rice. Eating something that you have to cook to eat doesn't make sense. Does anybody eat raw brown rice? Ripping it out of the ground or killing it and eating it makes sense.
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Old 02-08-2009, 10:00 AM   #28
Oliver Bradley
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Re: Brown Rice?

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Originally Posted by Nate Aye View Post
You are right, I haven't read the book, my money is better spent elsewhere. But frankly speaking, I resent the implication that I form my opinions based on the themes of these message boards. I've read the Protein Debate, a series of essays and rebuttals between Cambell and Cordain. I'm not a blind follower of Cordain either since I choose to consume dairy. But after seeing two sides of the argument presented clearly and fairly, I choose to side with the one who seems the least full of . It also doesn't take a phd, an NIH funded study, or even half a brain to tell me that people in developing countries who don't live sedentary lifestyles and eat a diet primarily consisting of un or minimally processed foods will have fewer detriments to their health than the average westerner who subsists himself primarily at 7-11. Now assuming we are all on here to pursue elite fitness, it can never hope to be reached following Cambells advice that <%12 of total calories come from protein. Therein lies the real issue. Sorry to ramble, as I do enjoy spirited discussion. Cheers
My main point was that calling Dr. Campbell a quack was incorrect. Dr. Campbell is a professor of Nutritional Biochemistry at Cornell University - a pretty respected institution. Also your final point that clean eating carb consumers will have less health problems than the average american is a no brainer. But there are tons of other studies sited in the book that don't have this discrepency.

I also am not debating the claim that the paleo or zone diet improve performance. This is evident to me just based on the testimonials I have read. I am not interested in improving performance at the expense of long-term health. We could take horse steroids and improve performance but I think we could both agree that our long-term health might be compromised. If eating I high animal protein diet does increase your risk for cancer, heart disease etc. then this may not be worth the risk of improved performance.

I have also read the debate between Cordain and Campbell and can admit that Cordain won the debate. I don't think this resolves anything in my mind because it seemed to me that Campbell did a half-assed job preparing. There is tons of research in his book that he neglected to mention as well as experts in Cordain's own field who disagree with his conclusions.

Lastly - although the paleo and zone diets improve performance this doesn't mean that a clean vegetarian diet that also resulted in the same performance levels couldn't be constructed. Carl Lewis is a common example of an explosive athlete who was also vegetarian. There is also Chris Campbell who at nearly 38 years old won a bronze medal in olympic wrestling. He weighed nearly 200 lbs and probably could have done a pretty good Fran if we consider the demands wrestling places on the body. He was a vegetarian since 12 years of age.
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Old 02-08-2009, 04:29 PM   #29
Katherine Derbyshire
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Re: Brown Rice?

Japan has one of the lowest obesity rates in the developed world. You could do a whole lot worse than a traditional Japanese diet, white rice and all.

Katherine
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Old 02-09-2009, 05:23 AM   #30
Darryl Shaw
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Re: Brown Rice?

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Originally Posted by Nate Aye View Post
Now assuming we are all on here to pursue elite fitness, it can never hope to be reached following Cambells advice that <%12 of total calories come from protein.
Campbells conclusions re. protein requirements aren't really all that different from what most sports nutritionists have been recomending for years.

www.nsca-lift.org/Perform/articles/PTJ060605.pdf (wfs)
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