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Old 12-11-2008, 07:10 PM   #11
Jesse Kodadek
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Re: Responding to anti-Crossfit mvmt arguments

Ask your chiro to do some ring dips then ask him about shoulder stability.

Then show him a turkish get up and blow his mind.
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Old 12-11-2008, 08:42 PM   #12
Robert Pierce
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Re: Responding to anti-Crossfit mvmt arguments

I would like to add a couple of points.

First, it sounds to me as if he has no idea how to train or strengthen the rotator cuff.

Second, to F/U on Robert's point, imbalance between the delt (pulling up on the humeral head, where it impinges the supraspinatus tendon, the subacromial bursa, and sometimes the bicipital tendon) and the rotator cuff (net effect the other way, pulling down on the humerus, creating more space for all of the above) is one cause of chronic rotator cuff problems. Lateral raises, by concentrating on the delts, might actually aggravate this imbalance.

Third, I would not be so quick to dismiss KB swings as beneficial to the rotator cuff. There is a lot of posterior chain stabilization involved. Anyone agree?

Fourth, if you are following a general CF program, with proper attention to technique, and you don't have a pre-existing rotator cuff problem, you probably don't need to specifically train the rotator cuff. In CF, strenghtening the shoulder properly will do a pretty good job of strengthening the rotator cuff. In a more traditional weight-lifting program, training the "shoulders" inappropriately concentrates on the delts. Think front raises and lateral raises...it is the delt which moves the arm from 0 to 90 degrees...no rotator cuff there, and no posterior stabilization.

signed...a doc with a high chance of never having stepped foot into a gym...but who has nonetheless.
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Old 12-11-2008, 08:58 PM   #13
Leah Turner
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Re: Responding to anti-Crossfit mvmt arguments

Both of the Roberts - thank you! Your posts were helpful and give me some info. I can use to dig deeper and help myself understand the mechanics of it.

Jesse - haha yeah, I wish!

It's funny though...the doc. does "look" like he works out or has in the past, w/ a football build and all...but that's probably worse because any clean he has possibly seen was likely not anywhere near a real clean.
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Old 12-12-2008, 07:41 AM   #14
Joel Chapman
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Re: Responding to anti-Crossfit mvmt arguments

This discussion brings to mind a secondary question. What is the scope of practice for a chiropractor? I've seen ads for nutrition seminars, athletic training, massage, weight loss, etc all by various chiros.

Maybe this chiro is out of his scope?
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Old 12-12-2008, 08:34 AM   #15
Eric M Pirrone
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Re: Responding to anti-Crossfit mvmt arguments

Hello all,

Please don't pigeon hole all chiros, pt, or Md's. Just because this one chiro dishes out some bad info, does not mean we all do. Remember, like coach says.. "We are judged by the margins of our experience" this chiro, like myself coming out of school had a very competent understanding of the current literature/research for rehab and exercise. However, I can tell you all first hand that CrossFit and its contributors (Rip,CoachB,Mckinzie..Pose running try explaining that to a podiatrist) challenges many things we(doctors/pts) are taught. I have adapted almost all of CrossFit principles into my patients care plans and exercise programs and it is Amazing!! Life is Constantly varied, filled with functional movements and usually we have relatively high intensity.
So, it falls into the line of KISS (keep it simple stupid).Brilliance!

Joel, the scope of practice is set by each individual state. Some are more open and some are strict. This is why you see so many chiros doing different things.

Small piece of advice for all.. Seek out a health care provider that lives the life. A typical doc has no clue about what we do. You can contact local crossfits, running clubs or lifting clubs.. we usually have one or two people associated with us that we refer too. In the chiro realm we also have a Sports Physician Program that designates us as Specialist in our field. Find one here http://www.acbsp.com/certificant%20directory.htm

Thanks

Eric Pirrone D.C CCSP Level 1 CrossFit Cert.
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Old 12-12-2008, 09:45 AM   #16
Bryan Gates
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Re: Responding to anti-Crossfit mvmt arguments

1) Pressure on the lower back for the squat and OHS are the same at the same weight. The reason is that it all depends on A) Angle of the lever (back) B) horizontal distance between level arm pressure (barbell or weight) position and pivot point (pelvis) C) Amount of weight used.

Concerning A, during the OHS the back is at the same angle or more vertical depending on your preference. If B and C are the same this means there is the same or less pressure on the lower back.

Concerning B, the horizontal distance is the same in the OHS and the squat or less. During the OHS the bar must stay directly over the scapula. The low bar squat is in the same position and the high bar squat is slightly forward. If A and C are the same then the pressure on the lower back is the same or less.

Concerning C, the amount of weight used in the OHS is far less than can be used in the squat. As such the pressure on the lower back will be less.

A+B+C = OHS puts less pressure on the lower back.

2) Any exercise that involves the shoulder will involve one or more parts of the rotator cuff.

3) Your chiro is a fitness retard.
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Old 12-12-2008, 09:50 AM   #17
Bob Guere
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Re: Responding to anti-Crossfit mvmt arguments

I have a small anecdote to add. I'm seeing a Chiro/PT right now for impingement/tendinitis in my shoulder as well. He's a sports PT guy which is I why I go to him. He's familiar with a tone of high-stress joint sports which mostly include grappling/JJ/Judo and the like.

He was VERY impressed that I am doing CF workouts, and was more than happy to help me with proper motion to avoid the areas of irritation with my shoulder. He and I discussed that it was most likely that my poor form early on in CF was the culprit, mostly having shoulders not active when I should, probably pressing with the elbows far to the side, etc.

Anyway, I might be somewhat limited as I go forward to avoid discomfort, but the exercises are more then welcome in his book.

BTW, I might have a convert on my hands, he's got a set of bumpers in his garage that he has no place to "throw around". He's heard of Coach B through the Olympic circle when he was doing PT stuff for the national judo team. I think I can get him to try a WOD.

So, my point is what? I don't know..........
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Old 12-12-2008, 10:06 AM   #18
Adam Noble
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Re: Responding to anti-Crossfit mvmt arguments

I had some trouble back in February with my low back(combination jiu jitsu and a heavy squat day gone wrong). Long story short, both the chiropractor and the acupuncturist came and signed up the gym.
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Old 12-12-2008, 04:20 PM   #19
Jared Buffie
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Re: Responding to anti-Crossfit mvmt arguments

Couple of thoughts...

First, I'm a chiro who has turned countless people on to Crossfit. I actually hand out cards of the local affiliate in my practice for people who want to get in shape.

That having been said, I do also take care of some of the people who train at the local affiliate. Most injuries come from form breaking down over high reps of heavy movements (think 21 reps of 225lb deads in "Dianne"). I'm not sure about high rep heavy movements like deadlifts, snatch, clean and press, etc, especially when you're trying to beat the clock. To me, rushed reps of a heavy compund motion is a recipie for injury ONLY BECAUSE IT INVITES FORM TO BREAK DOWN.

A couple of other things regarding chiros/PTs/MD's and Crossfit...

A local TV station did a news piece on the affiliate here in Winnipeg. I was interviewed, and was quoted as saying that Crossfit is safe for anyone as long as the proper scaling was done. They cut from me to a cardiologist who basically said that anything like Crossfit is extreme and potentially deadly and should not be done by anyone who is not an elite athlete, etc...

As for the shoulder.. the SITS muscles are stabalizers, and should be strengthened (IMO) by stabalizing. In other words, strengthen them by allowing them to stabalize the shoulder during pressing motions. They were never designed to be isolated, which is why I almost lose my mind when I see people warming up in the gym doing internal/external rotaion with weights.

And Rob P, I could be wrong but I seem to recall that the supraspinatus is responsible for the first 30 degrees of abduction. Either way, lateral raises are not a good idea (not to mention that the strength curve of the deltoid is inverse to the force curve of the movement...).
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Old 12-12-2008, 05:36 PM   #20
Corey Duvall
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Re: Responding to anti-Crossfit mvmt arguments

Quote:
Originally Posted by Christian Gotcher View Post
My best bet with your chiro is not to quote facts/authorities on lifting (which he probably wouldn't listen to anyway because, after all, he's a doctor) but challenge their assumptions. What does an OHS actually train? What does it mean to have an active shoulder? What is proper form for a military press? In what way does a dumbbell train the rotator cuff? In what way does a barbell press not? (and here's the real test of competence) What's the proper way to squat?
I am a chiropractor and it always makes me shudder when I hear statements like the one that started this post. Ignorance leads to fear, fear leads to further ignorance. Christian is correct, the best way is not to cite someone else but to use to Socratic method to elicit what they're talking about. Ask them for justification for those statements: there won't be one that we find to be valid. It was said earlier and I will re-iterate... find someone who lives the life.

Technique is paramount in the legitimacy of an exercise. If a professional has a problem with Crossfit exercises it is on this premise: load causes damage. Crossfit exercises allow you to use WAY more load on the bar, exactly what makes them effective is what makes them dangerous. An incorrectly performed press is more detrimental than an incorrectly perfomed theraband external rotation. A correctly perfomed pressed is more beneficial than a correctly perfomed external rotation.

An efficiently performed push jerk or snatch are two of the most powerful exercises for both shoulder and core stability. The scapula must support the humerus under a great load at the proper position and the rotator cuff must squeeze the humerus into the scapula (what it was meant to do). For the midline, the weight is overhead which increases the lever arm to the lower body. Essentially, small deviations forward or backward require a far greater contraction to maintain a neutral spine. Done wrong, they are disastrous. Done right they are extremely effective and powerful. Learn how to do them, slowly increase the load, and know how to bail when you fail. Do that and your daily life chores will be easy.

My entire rehab protocol is on scaled crossfit exercises: improve how your body moves and add load.
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Last edited by Corey Duvall : 12-12-2008 at 05:48 PM. Reason: couple type-o's
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